I have been looking into getting a new firing pin and spring from pacific gun and tool for my rem 700, in 25-06. My father in-law thinks it is a bad idea becuase the firing pin is aluminum instead of steel, and may not be as strong of last as long in a hunting gun. Anybody had any problems, or have any break. All info would help. Thanks,
Aluinum firing pin question????
- Thread starter T-CAIN
- Start date
the rifleer
New member
I didn't know anybody made aluminum ones. I wouldn't really want one either. Whats wrong with the steel ones? if you say to save weight then thats just silly.
montanaboy
Inactive
I highly doubt there is a problem using an aluminum alloy. After all some of the absolutely best (and expensive) automobile racing engines are made from aluminum or better put an "aluminum alloy."
I suspect your dad-in-law is an older guy like me so when he hears the word aluminum he immediately thinks of some sleazy aluminum siding that he saw nailed to the side of a neighbor's house back in the 60's.
heh, heh
But that being said the rifleer above is correct... what is the reason for making aluminum firing pins anyway?
I suspect your dad-in-law is an older guy like me so when he hears the word aluminum he immediately thinks of some sleazy aluminum siding that he saw nailed to the side of a neighbor's house back in the 60's.
heh, heh
But that being said the rifleer above is correct... what is the reason for making aluminum firing pins anyway?
The reason for an aluminum firing pin is that it weighs less than a steel firing pin, so it has less inertia, so it will decrease lock time and increase firing pin velocity, resulting in faster and more positive ignition. Aluminum firing pins have been around a long time, nothing new. And they have steel tips on them to resist damage, so don't worry.
If you don't know, just say so, don't try to sound important. It doesn't work.
If you don't know, just say so, don't try to sound important. It doesn't work.
montanaboy
Inactive
Scorch says...
"If you don't know, just say so, don't try to sound important. It doesn't work."
****************************************************
Works for you
"If you don't know, just say so, don't try to sound important. It doesn't work."
****************************************************
Works for you
ScottRiqui
New member
That really has no bearing on aluminum's suitability for use as a firing pin, because there aren't any aluminum alloy parts in an engine that are subject to the same kinds of impact force that a firing pin has to endure (that's why you'll never see aluminum valve stems in an engine.)
As noted already in the thread, there *are* aluminum firing pins, but the "business end" is still steel. Aluminum is okay for the other end of the pin because the impact force from the hammer is being spread out over a much larger area.
Thanks for all the input. Sorry I wasn't more specific in why I wanted one. I wanted one because stronger springs and lighter firing pins equaled faster lock times, which reduces the time in between pulling the trigger and the pin hitting the primer, which results in a more accurate shot. At least that's how I understood it when I read about them, makes sense to me. Aluminum alloy, or air craft aluminum is all you ever hear about anymore so I wasn't too specific on it either. It makes sense that the body is aluminum to reduce weight, and the tip is steel for strength. Has anyone installed one and had a reduction in group size. I have read a lot of good things about the system, seems to be one of the easier steps to accuratizing.
The argument with titanium pins was exactly the same. On paper, faster lock times should give better accuracy. In reality, the difference isn't even measurable unless you have an extreme accuracy barrel to show it. Run of the mill guns have so many other factors creating group dispersion that the fast lock time is covered up by the others.
Accuracy is governed by a great barrel, proven handloads, and superior optics to get on the smallest target point possible. We're talking leade, rifling, ammo components, bullet diameters running to the smallest possible variance, even loading them straight and coaxial. Barrel resonance, damping, and clocking to put stringing into the best plane. An optic that let's you actually see bullet impact. Then something like a fast lock time might be discerned.
All too often the parts have the right idea, but the timing of installing them is all wrong. Too many put 1% return parts on a gun that's not even capable. If it's not a guaranteed target stainless barrel, with handloads tested and retested over a years development, I don't expect much from a few microseconds less lock time improving much.
What is the makers guaranteed MOA improvement, in writing? Barrel and ammo makers do.
Accuracy is governed by a great barrel, proven handloads, and superior optics to get on the smallest target point possible. We're talking leade, rifling, ammo components, bullet diameters running to the smallest possible variance, even loading them straight and coaxial. Barrel resonance, damping, and clocking to put stringing into the best plane. An optic that let's you actually see bullet impact. Then something like a fast lock time might be discerned.
All too often the parts have the right idea, but the timing of installing them is all wrong. Too many put 1% return parts on a gun that's not even capable. If it's not a guaranteed target stainless barrel, with handloads tested and retested over a years development, I don't expect much from a few microseconds less lock time improving much.
What is the makers guaranteed MOA improvement, in writing? Barrel and ammo makers do.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"so it has less inertia, so it will decrease lock time and increase firing pin velocity, resulting in faster and more positive ignition."
That works to a degree.
It's possible to make the firing pin so light that it simply won't have the energy needed to reliably detonate primers.
This is especially true of harder military primers.
I put a very lightweight firing pin in my Browning High Power some years ago. Had to, the original steel one went down range while I was trying to remedy a problem, and the titanium one was on sale...
Anyway, I had some European military surplus 9mm with bricks for primers. They fired fine with the stock steel firing pin....
Big problems with the titanium firing pin.
That works to a degree.
It's possible to make the firing pin so light that it simply won't have the energy needed to reliably detonate primers.
This is especially true of harder military primers.
I put a very lightweight firing pin in my Browning High Power some years ago. Had to, the original steel one went down range while I was trying to remedy a problem, and the titanium one was on sale...
Anyway, I had some European military surplus 9mm with bricks for primers. They fired fine with the stock steel firing pin....
Big problems with the titanium firing pin.
ScottRiqui
New member
In a typical firearm, is the hammer still in contact with the rear end of the firing pin when the forward end of the pin strikes the primer? If so, then I would think that as long as the pin is strong enough to resist flexing, it wouldn't matter what it was actually made of.
But if the hammer instead "kicks" the firing pin and sends it flying forward into the primer, I can see how a certain minimum firing pin mass would be required to ensure that the primer will detonate.
But if the hammer instead "kicks" the firing pin and sends it flying forward into the primer, I can see how a certain minimum firing pin mass would be required to ensure that the primer will detonate.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
SFAIK, Scott, in bolt actions, most have a floating firing pin. Release of the spring sends the pin forward, but the spring doesn't expand to push the pin all the way through the hole in the bolt face. Inertia from the initial push.
A hammer system like the Garand has the hammer in contact all the way: I think. But don't quote me.
I've never examined a lever gun about this setup.
A hammer system like the Garand has the hammer in contact all the way: I think. But don't quote me.
I've never examined a lever gun about this setup.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Most modern firearms have some sort of active or passive inertial firing pin system where, with the hammer (if there is one, most bolt actions don't have a hammer, but are striker fired) at rest the firing pin is held well short of contacting the primer.
On older guns and some foreign guns this was not always the case.
My High Power has a spring loaded firing pin. The hammer blow must overcome the power of the spring.
So, in my case, uber light firing pin + spring + hard-capped military surplus = misfires.
Many military rifles such as the SKS, the AR-15/M-16, and the M 1 Garand have free-floating firing pins, meaning there's no spring.
If you chamber a round without firing it then eject it from one of these rifles you'll often see the primer is dimpled where the firing pin slid forward.
Normally not a problem.
Normally in that a soft commercial primer could cause a slam fire.
Also, especially in the SKS, use of a super slick lubricant on either the bolt or the firing pin or both could allow the firing pin to gain enough momentum to set off a multi-shot OOPSIE.
Always fun to see!
On older guns and some foreign guns this was not always the case.
My High Power has a spring loaded firing pin. The hammer blow must overcome the power of the spring.
So, in my case, uber light firing pin + spring + hard-capped military surplus = misfires.
Many military rifles such as the SKS, the AR-15/M-16, and the M 1 Garand have free-floating firing pins, meaning there's no spring.
If you chamber a round without firing it then eject it from one of these rifles you'll often see the primer is dimpled where the firing pin slid forward.
Normally not a problem.
Normally in that a soft commercial primer could cause a slam fire.
Also, especially in the SKS, use of a super slick lubricant on either the bolt or the firing pin or both could allow the firing pin to gain enough momentum to set off a multi-shot OOPSIE.
Always fun to see!
ScottRiqui
New member
Art/Mike,
That makes sense - thanks!
That makes sense - thanks!
If free floating firing pins can potentially lead to failures, why are so many firearms made this way? Is it for design simplicity, or does a free floating firing pin offer some other advantages as well?
Mike, you listed the military rifles as having free floating firing pins. Are most commercial firearms the same way, or are they like your Browning High Power with the spring?
It seems to me that if a lighter replacement firing pin is sold for something that has one of those springs, it should be packaged with a spring that is more suited for the lightweight pin.
Mike, you listed the military rifles as having free floating firing pins. Are most commercial firearms the same way, or are they like your Browning High Power with the spring?
It seems to me that if a lighter replacement firing pin is sold for something that has one of those springs, it should be packaged with a spring that is more suited for the lightweight pin.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"If free floating firing pins can potentially lead to failures, why are so many firearms made this way?"
Generally it's military designs that have been made that way over the years. I think part of it is simplicity.
Remember, military ammunition generally has much harder (thicker, tougher metal, etc.) primers, meaning that the chances of such a slam fire with military ammo is pretty non-existent.
The problem only rears its head when these rifles are released into the civilian market place. Civilian primers are generally a lot softer and easier to set off.
Even so, civilian primers and military rifles generally aren't a problem until shooters start using a combination of the primers and either a lightweight firing pin or start lubing the firing pin with one of the super friction reducing lubricants, or both.
The best way to avoid problems is to simply keep the firing pin and its channel free of lubrication or, if it is lubricated, use a mid to heavy bodied grease, which will tend to retard the firing pin due to viscosity.
As for commercial firearms with free-floating firing pins, I can't honestly say, but I would doubt it.
Generally it's military designs that have been made that way over the years. I think part of it is simplicity.
Remember, military ammunition generally has much harder (thicker, tougher metal, etc.) primers, meaning that the chances of such a slam fire with military ammo is pretty non-existent.
The problem only rears its head when these rifles are released into the civilian market place. Civilian primers are generally a lot softer and easier to set off.
Even so, civilian primers and military rifles generally aren't a problem until shooters start using a combination of the primers and either a lightweight firing pin or start lubing the firing pin with one of the super friction reducing lubricants, or both.
The best way to avoid problems is to simply keep the firing pin and its channel free of lubrication or, if it is lubricated, use a mid to heavy bodied grease, which will tend to retard the firing pin due to viscosity.
As for commercial firearms with free-floating firing pins, I can't honestly say, but I would doubt it.
Steel-tipped aluminum firing pins are generally used in bolt action rifles, which are almost universally striker-fired. Lightweight firing pins and inertia firing pin systems do not mix well.
I can think of no inertia firing pin centerfire bolt actions, which is what the OP was asking about. Can you name one? I suppose there are some, but most bolt actions are striker-fired, and the firing pin is forced against the primer by the spring, as in a Mauser, Winchester, Remington, or Savage. But don't take my word for it, go check for yourself: remove the bolt from your bolt-action rifle, put the bolt in the position it would be in when fired, and you will notice that the firing pin protrudes from the bolt face under spring pressure.
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