Alternative propellants

D

Dangus

New member
Thought I'd start a thread about ideas for alternative propellants.

I saw some old research data back in high school that showed some tests that (I think FN) did with gasoline for a propellant, and obtained incredible muzzle velocities of over 4500fps with a 6mm round, but had problems making the thing reliable.

What sorts of propellents could we look forward to in the future of firearms? Any thoughts?

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
I'm thinking extract of cowpie and chicken shat as there supposedly is enuf methane there to run the world. I've seen some witches brews on TV that showed some potential. Or how bout Pyrodex like pellets of the latest plastique explosives.
Liquid propellents would need a new priming or firing mechanism. I can't see hauling all these new propellant tanks down tha basement though. Enuf drivel

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"In my opinion, anyone pushing through anti-gun legislation is a bloody traitor and should be sent up for treason" N.H. Stuart
 
Well, gasoline's explosive power if I remember correctly, is greater than that of dynamite, so it probably wouldn't take too much to propel each shot. A small fuel tank and oxygen tank could be hidden in the stock, but perhaps it might be too hard to keep it safe. As for ignition, well, a spark plug could do that job pretty easy.

I'm guessing there's an easier way.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Seems there would have to be a way. They have carpenters nail guns now that run on propane (no cords or hoses) and a similar system should be able to fire a bullet. Maybe an inexpensive way to have caseless ammo?
 
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. If any of us were ever in one of those hypothetical situations where ammo was not obtainable, it would be interesting information to have wouldn't it?

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
About 20 years ago I did a little experimentation with match-heads (both paper matches and wood-type) with suprisingly good results in large-bore revolver. even tried reloading a few primers (about 20) with the tip section of strike-anywhere type, that was a LOT of work per item! Had one misfire with primers. not sure I'd want to fire very many of these through a good-condition piece, as they are probably abrasive as he!!. tested them in an old gun with a bad bore already. Felt like about 800-900 fps, though.
crankshaft
paranoia is a good thing to have when they are actually out to get You!
 
You used the match head material for propellent? Or just for primers?

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Water

If you can get water hot enough fast enough it separates into its base elements. Hydrogen and oxygen. Add a source of ignition and … BOOM.

I’m not a chemist but your question along with a recent story from my father have me thinking that a water gun is the way to go.

My dad is a fireman and was telling me of a recent fire in an aluminum baseball bat factory. The Bats are cast before being turned. When the water from the fire hose hit the molten aluminum a series of explosions resulted and bats went flying everywhere. They had to settle for containing the blaze and letting it burn out.

Pretty interesting I thought especially in light of your question.


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“This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”
 
To get water that hot would require a hell of a lot of power....

On the other hand, steam might be an interesting option, one which I didn't think of. Steam's expansion rate is like 700:1 from water if I remember correctly. It would give a nice, steady push.

Will gunpowder and primers fire when wet?

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
HEY-

paintball guns acheive 300-350 FPS using CO2 and nitrogen as a propellant. but they shoot .68 caliber projectiles, and paintballs weigh alot.

if you were to use, say, a .22 bullet, with the same amount of force, wouldnt the velocity be higher because there is less resistance? or am i an idiot?

Basically a larger caliber air gun... also, if you were to use Gas (CO2 or Nitro) at a lower pressure with more volume( rather than one quick powerful burst) the projectile would have a more stable trajectory, and there would be less waisted gas.

the problem would be finding a gas with a high expansion rate, which would propell the bullet at a significant speed.

i think.

Going out on a limb here- i have done some custom paintball gun work, so just trying to apply some of the basic pricipals...

thanks,

RugerKid17
 
The surface area on the back of the .22 would be relative to the weight of the round, actually worse than the paintball.

You'd need a lot more pressure to push the bullet, but you could almost certainly get pistol speeds out of them. Getting high power rifle speeds using compressed gas just isn't an option, unless you cool the gas a lot, inject it into the firing chamber, and suddenly heat it incredibly, causing it to expand, but that would get over-complicated, and complications of that nature can be deadly on a battlefield.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
As long as you are using compressed gas, how about using oxygen or an oxygenated gas. If the compression is high enough, this will create enough heat to ignight a hydrocarbon fuel such as gasoline or diesel fuel. It just needs to be metered and injected into the chamber. An onboard gas cylinder could also power the injection system. It would basically be like the dieseling effect of oil in the chamber of an air rifle..only with an enhanced boost if enough oxygen is supplied.
 
Now THAT is one hell of an idea. Good thinking.

The only problem... how do you keep the explosion in the breech from having blowback into the compressed gas source?

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Blowback should be controllable by a simple spring-loaded valve. Gas release will overcome the spring and allow flow and as pressure equalizes the valve can close. Or when firing pressure increases, it should force it shut..

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned black powder...very easy to make and effective...As far as priming goes, although very sensitive, silver acetylide would be very effective and also easy to make.
MFH
 
We're talking alternative propellants, black powder is not one, and it is too low pressure to offer any advantage.

As for the valve, that doesn't sound like it could withstand 50-70 thousand PSI.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
I was thinking of alternatives in terms of if we could no longer obtain current products, then how could we improvise...
As far as pressure containment by a valve goes, what I envisioned would be similiar to a valve/seat relationship in an engine. The difference being that the frontal shape as well as flange area could be altered to re-direct pressure forces to the surrounding barrel, or small enough that total force would not exceed the strength of the steel. As an example, 50000psi on one square quarter inch would only have a maximum force of 3125 pounds. On a flat surface you are right, but how about a cone-shaped surface???
 
Ack, we need a metalurgist.

Anyone?

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Dangus, I loaded about 50 rounds with match-head powder as the main propellant, about 20 of those had homemade primers as well. I figured he was talking about other things being verboten.
crankshaft
paranoia is a good thing to have when they actually are out to get You!
 
Running electrical current through water can separate it as well, but I think the current is a little high for a battery.
 
Mikul,

You can crack water with just about any electrical current over a few volts, including a 9 volt battery, if I remember my high school chemistry.

I know you can do it with household electrical current.

Problem is, cracking water, because of the types of chemcial bonds involved, is VERY power intensive.

The amount of power required to crack the water into H & O2 is, if I remember correctly, roughly 3 times what you get back out of it when you combust it at optimal mixtures.

Nuclear submarines use high voltage electrial discharge to crack water. The oxygen is used to supply the needs of the men in the boat, while the hydrogen is an undesirable byproduct.

We've got a former nukeboat guy here at my office... I'll have to ask him how the hydrogen was handled.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
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