Alternate Full Sizing Technique

M

morgaj1

New member
For my bolt action bench rifles, I have always preferred the accuracy and concentricity that I get neck from sizing with a Lee Collet die on fire-formed brass. However, I prefer to full-length size the brass on my bolt action hunting rifles for the most reliable feeding.

I heard about an alternate method that is intriguing: Neck-size and deprime with the Lee collet die, followed by sizing with a Redding Body die. That would seem to be the best of both worlds for my hunting loads - good concentricity and reliable feeding. I realize that it adds an extra step on the press prior to trimming, but I usually only load 10-20 rounds at a time. Thoughts?
 
Not certain what you would gain by the 2-step process sizing process that a full length die wouldn't give you [assuming you needed to purchase another die anyway]. But, with that written, I never had much luck neck sizing for my single shots. Seemed, after 3 or 4 loadings, they would need to be full length resizing anyway. When shooting IHMSA, I would go so far as to mark the rim in order to index it in the chamber. Theoretically, it was to ensure accuracy. I ended up just backing off the full length die so that 2/3 of the neck was resized using standard dies.
 
Morgaj1,

That's what I've been doing for the last several years with precision loads in .308, .223 and 6.5-284. I lap the Lee collet dies to improve smoothness of operation and sensitivity of feel. I use the Redding die to push the shoulders back about 0.001" for self-centering of the case shoulder in the chamber shoulder. If I am loading for a self-loader or for rapid magazine feeding in a bolt gun, I set the shoulder back 0.002-0.003". The Lee die is impossible to beat for keeping the neck and case body coaxial.

If you need to use a conventional sizing die, Forster will hone the neck of a standard sizing dies out to match your brass so you may avoid using an expander. You can also accomplish expander avoidance with anybody's neck bushing die, but the solid die is always going to be the last word in coaxiality of the case body and neck portions. The problem is that unless you anneal every load cycle, there will come a point when you need that neck portion an extra half thousandth smaller to as much as a thousandth smaller to make up for increasing springiness of the brass, so you end up owning two or three of the custom dies for each brass headstamp you load.

Another approach is to use a carbide expander and dry inside neck lube, both. This seems to reduce friction enough to avoid most neck runout.

Still another approach is to just size in a factory die with the expander removed (or replaced with the next smaller caliber expander if you have neck dents to iron out), and then use the Sinclair neck turning mandrel die body and the appropriate size mandrel to expand the neck with downward force rather than with withdrawing force. This seems less prone to upsetting the neck axis.
 
Full length resizing in 2 separate operations has been done for a long, long time. I was doing it in the early 2000's when I was shooting in 1,000 yard F Class Competition. However, instead of using the Lee collet die for neck sizing, we used the Redding neck sizer with a bushing that gave us .001" of neck tension in addition to only resizing about 2/3's of the neck.

Don
 
The main advantages of the Lee design are: The mandrel eliminates over-resizing, so no expander is needed. It doesn't care how thick the neck walls are, giving you the same amount of interference fit with the bullet, regardless of that. Neck lubing is eliminated.

If you want a partially resized-type neck from the Lee, slip a close-fitting washer over the case after it is in the shell holder and whose thickness is the height of the unresized length of the neck you want forward of the shoulder. It's really a pretty versatile tool.
 
followed by sizing with a Redding Body die.
Click to expand...

Does the body die bump the shoulder?
Click to expand...

Redding knows there is no such thing as a body die because the die reloaders are calling a body die also sizes the shoulder but that is OK because reloader believe they can move the shoulder back (by bumping), and then there is that part of the case at the shoulder/neck juncture that does not get sized because of the bushing. It is no surprise to me reloader require so much therapy.

F. Guffey
 
F. Guffey said:
Redding knows there is no such thing as a body die because the die reloaders are calling a body die also sizes the shoulder but that is OK because reloader believe they can move the shoulder back (by bumping), and then there is that part of the case at the shoulder/neck juncture that does not get sized because of the bushing. It is no surprise to me reloader require so much therapy.

F. Guffey
Click to expand...
Regardless what you call it, the body die is resizing brass. What am I missing?
 
Every body say's "bump the shoulder". That's just a saying for don't return to SAMMI spec's. You cannot bump the shoulder without getting the whole case the same amount. I have read of guy's that fall just short of the bump, maybe call it a short bump. The case will then fire but you'll feel the shoulder drag closing the bolt. I sure wouldn't want that in a hunting rifle!

In my rifle's I neck size short with the FL die till the case won't chamber again. Then start working the FL die down a bit at a time, maybe 1/4 turn, until I can take that case and chamber it without feeling the shoulder rub. The case then fit's that chamber but not so tight the shoulder rubs being chambered. The bump the shoulder method is really partial sizing. As I said, you cannot move the shoulder at all with out bumping the whole case. When I first heard it called "bump the shoulder", I had no idea what the guy was talking about. Bump the shoulder is to set it back enough to get the case to feed.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Guffey
Redding knows there is no such thing as a body die because the die reloaders are calling a body die also sizes the shoulder but that is OK because reloader believe they can move the shoulder back (by bumping), and then there is that part of the case at the shoulder/neck juncture that does not get sized because of the bushing. It is no surprise to me reloader require so much therapy.

F. Guffey

Regardless what you call it, the body die is resizing brass. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Not a thing. English seems to be a 2nd language for F. Guffey.

Don
 
I am doing minimum shoulder bump back and (changed to expanding) with a Lyman M.

Seems to work well.
 
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Hunting ammo is not bench rest ammo. Plain old FL resizing is enough. Mind you, so is neck sizing only. The extra steps won't do much of anything for concentricity and reliable feeding. Isn't going to bother anything either though. It's your time.
 
Typos happen. The Lyman M is an expander, not a sizer. But you are right that it does not throw necks out for the same reason expanding with the Sinclair mandrels doesn't. It's doing it on the downstroke. Plus, it starts the bullet seating very straight.


SAAMI's glossary of firearms terminology says:

SAAMI said:
BODY (CASE)
1. The portion of the cartridge case which contains the propellant.
2. Shotshell - the tubular section that contains the propellant, wads and shot charge (if present).
Click to expand...

So they are including the shoulder, as Redding does, and their body dies size only the shoulder and sides of a case. The top of it is made slightly too wide to size the neck, leaving you to handle that separately.

The definition of "hunting accuracy" is in the eye of the beholder. Some say a 1 to 2 moa gun is more than adequate. Tell that to a varmint hunter taking out prairie dogs at 300 yards. There are always assumptions about the game and ranges in any opinion on that matter, and they may not apply to any particular shooter.
 
While I can agree on different definitions, its understood hunting accuracy is associated with game animals (at least IMNSHO)

Taking about prairie dogs, coyotes etc is varmint shooting, pest control . I am not into coyotes so I don't know if people take the skins but that is still not game.

And obviously if you shoot Elks at 1000 yards you need better than 2 MOA accuracy.

Call that long range hunting as a modifier to the conversation.
 
Originally Posted by SAAMI

BODY (CASE)
1. The portion of the cartridge case which contains the propellant.
2. Shotshell - the tubular section that contains the propellant, wads and shot charge (if present).
Click to expand...

reminds me of Johnny and Ed when discussing 'everything a person wanted and needs to know about a subject' and then there is the 'not so fast' thing.

Sierra's #1 reloading manual has a drawing of a case with nomenclature. The case has a case head that is not sized with a small base ide, the case had a case body and it has a shoulder that is separated with a case body/shoulder juncture and the case has a neck that has a shoulder/neck juncture.

In the beginning Redding had reloaders believing the body die sized the body of the case and the shoulder was not included. I thought 'body die' was a bad choice of words because the die had to include a way to sized the case body and shoulder.

And then someone thought the body die was new and novel, I did not agree because I was doing that before the Internet. I used the 8mm06 and 338/06 dies to size the 30/06 case body and shoulder without sizing the neck.

F. Guffey
 
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