AK's - Why so little discussion?

J

Jeff Thomas

New member
Noticed a fellow over in the Handguns section asking why so little discussion re: Beretta's. I've always wondered the same about AK's.

I've shot them a couple of times when loaned to me by folks at the range. Read a bit about them, and of course hear about them in the 'demonizing' press all of the time. But, why so little discussion on TFL? Are they considered that inferior to AR's?

What are the pros and cons? Am I right in thinking that the SKS is an AK derivative? There seems to be a dizzying variety of AK's. Are some much better than others? Why no AK web site? (yes, I know - more questions than sense. ;) )

Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited August 17, 1999).]
 
You might get a kick out of the forum area over at www.ak-47.net/ .

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RKBA!

Just tried the link, and they are down for a few more days--increasing bandwith.

[This message has been edited by Lucas (edited August 18, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Lucas (edited August 18, 1999).]
 
Because they're the EVIL symbol of socialist revolutionaries worldwide!

More seriously, I guess questions don't rise all that much about them. Reliable, sturdy, robust design. Absorbs a lot of abuse from neglectful and poorly trained soldiers worldwide (try inserting a magazine and using the gun as a seat. Mind you, the magazine is suppose to raise the gun off the ground when you do that. Try that with an AR).

The first AK type guns imported into the country was the Finnish made ones by Valmet. Interarms was the importer. A machined receiver Valmet was $350, about $100 more than a Remington 700 is 1976. There wasn't much in the way of surplus ammo and Interarms had the market. Then in the '80s, the Chinese began shipping them in. Clayco of Kansas was the first, then other firms like Keng's jumped in and the market was flooded. The rest is history.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Probably because people don't have malfunction problems with AK's. None of this, "My AK is not extracting and ejecting well, what's the problem?" You have to try to make them malfunction.

Another reason is that they are not modular like an AR and they're not made (decent ones, anyway) in this country. Other than the side rail equipped AK's, mounting a scope is questionable.
 
Jeff-I love my AK, I also love my AR.
The AK in my opinion is the best battle rifle on the market today. This is because first of all it is very reliable, second it is very cheap to manufacture(can equip a large army with little funds) and third it is easy to feild strip and function. Accuracy is not what the AK is all about. The only thing I can think about that the AK and the SKS have in common is the gas tubes look similar, but they are not the same. I would not doubt if Klashnikov's desighn was heavily influenced by Simminov's.

Later
Daren
 
How's this for a query:

I have reloaded USGI LC brass using Winchester bulk 55gr fmjbts for a friend's Valmet M76 (that's the one in .223/5.56mm).

The load is a published charge of WW748, under max. And the thing rather consistently rips the cases in half, mid-body. Sometimes everything ejects, sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, we get a really neat demonstration of how to use a subsequent case (preferrably not a loaded round...) crammed into the chamber as a broken case extractor. This is okay, until the total length of good case plus bad case is so long that the good case hits the fixed ejector before the bad case clears exiting the chamber...

This never happens with factory ammo--even the cheap soft-brass Phillipine stuff.

This malf also rather infrequently involves the extractor completely snapping off of the rim, leaving the fired case in the chamber, and getting the OAL of the feeding round massively shortened as it crams itself into the fired case head. The rim is never ripped off, but is smooged to half its original thickness as the extractor smears off of it.

No, there is NOT a rough chamber, either.

I've looked through the AK-47.net discussions, but almost all of the few who reload are exclusively doing so for 7.62x39 ChiCom guns.

Any clues, guys, on a fix other than "use only factory ammo?"
 
from what i have learned on the web ;)
Military guns run a lose chamber to help cycling under extreme conditions
civilian guns run a tighter chamber for accuracy
when civilian brass is run it stretches to fill the milspec chamber
when reloaded it gets too tight
are your sizing dies milspec nato?

HTH
dZ
 
I have had problems in my Maadi with brass ammo period. Stay with cheap steel case runs great! have had problems with good American brass stuff?

Later
Daren
 
One of my Ak's is a Polytech RPK in 223 caliber. It has the long barrel and bipod and is identical to 762x39 Rpk squad weapon ,but not selective fire. I have not had any problems with any ammo shot through it except some Armscor ammo was not very reliable and had a few failures to feed with the Armscor ammo.
 
The issue of which AK variant is better than others was raised earlier and I apologize now for my diatribe which avoided the issue.

For AKM variants, the Egyptian Maadi (early ones imported by Steyr) are the closest one can get to the Russian AKM. Everybody else, including all the Eastern European makers, modified the design. Some did it via furniture, others by finish. This did not necessarily make them better or worse, just different.

For machined versions, the early Valmets were excellant and sadly, the later ones were stamped. Of recent memory, the Israeli Galil stands out as a heavy, but well engineered AK. It featured a very convenient ambidextrious safety switch which was operated by the right thumb (which also moved that noisy lever). Great night sights (flip up front), easy to use cocking lever (turned up). Drawback though was that it heavy. Robust yes, but heavy.

Probably the greatest number of AKs imported into this country was from China of which there were two (Army owned) firms: Polytech and Norinco. The former also imported the machined receiver AK47 which had its own following. Though one model was dubbed "National Match", it should be pointed out that there is no such standard. Norinco itself was very clever in offering many models: standard plastic, underfolding stock, side folding stock, bull pup, etc.

The AKs to watch out for, regardless of make, is the underfolder models. As they get worn (and they will with extensive use), the stocks will tend to wobble left and right. This happened even to the ones in combat but armies don't care - they need only give it to the armorer for rebuilding/replacement.

While this post leaves many areas uncovered (buy Clinton Ezell's book, The AK47 Story for good reading), I hope to have provided some insights to a question which I neglected to respond to earlier.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
I have one of the Norinco Type 86s Bullpup AKs and I've been keeping an eye out for a Valmet M82 Bullpup AK. They're a neat looking little rifles. Always good for the WOW facter at the range :)

Chuck
 
dZ:

The brass was always USGI, and the resizing has been both with RCBS and Lee.

Resizing was full-length, and reduced cases to within the Wilson Case Gage max specs, but bigger than the original USGI dimensions. These were *not* small-base dies, and chamber-checking the ammo in both the Valmet and another friend's Colt AR-15 has shown easy chambering and extraction.

A bit of a puzzle, eh?
 
Back to the original question of the topic, I think another reason that there's so little discussion is one of accuracy-- it's not there. Bear with me, now, and no big flames--

Most of the people, like me, who flip on over to the "The Art of the Rifle" forum are primarily interested in accurate rifles, be they heavy barreled match rifles, or tight-chambered AR's, or Marlin 336's that have been tricked out with a scope and a good handload to turn in 1 MOA (and many can do it!). Occasionally, we find ourselves entranced by the cheap and easy, like the SKS, but it has enough drawbacks to merit questions.

The AK, however, is: (1) a genre unto itself, rightfully the object of several websites, and possibly the appropriate object of a forum here, along with the AR's and tricked SKS's: the "Politically Incorrect Rifle Forum." (2)Not too very accurate. I regularly outshoot AK's with my Norinco SKS, which only gives me about 3.5 MOA, itself. For an AK to do better than 3 MOA is the EXCEPTION, rather than the rule. (3) Not unreliable. As mentioned above, what's to discuss? They work. (4)Not the object of much upgrade. See #3. (5) As such (1 and 2), most who own them on this forum aren't much proud of 'em. :)

As my Dad said when he plunked down his money for a Mak-90: "The only reason in the world that I want one is that Slick Willy says I shouldn't."

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited August 24, 1999).]
 
Likewise, I suppose the prohibition and bad press is what makes me so curious as well. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Many good sources, and much good information.

Regards from AZ
 
I would like to note that one can get aprox. 1 MOA or a fraction less AK-style weapon by buying Sako M92S/M95 (latter being the fullu auto one. But I guess that U need somesorta licence for it in any case over there due to the assault weapon ban.
A hint about AK accuracy is that if U happen to have relatively good one that shoots say 2" -0.X" so that U know that the barrel is OK, make a custom mag that feeds from same side everytime (or use 75rnds drum that does it in any case), military AKs have loose tolerances and and those that have good barrels enough to even notice it often shoot two groups depending on which of the lugs is carrying more of the stress ( and to which direction the loose play has been pushed off).
The M9X family has redesigned trigger assy that delievers excelent pull without any creep very unlike to the standard AK mechanism. Some company in Helsinki allso makes thumb operated safetylever kit for the M9Xs, it might fit the older ones as well.

Gattling.
 
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