Ahh! help! I Put my hand in the fire.....

C

Canuck84

New member
Well I just went over to HCI for a stint and read their research. Turn's out all you CCW owners are irrational people who can't use your weapons anyway 8-) That's what their facts on CCW's make out.....

Anyhow. I read the truth about australia:

http://www.handguncontrol.org/facts/ib/australia.asp

And It said:
And in 1998, the rate at which firearms were used in murder, attempted
murder, assault, sex ual assault and armed robbery went down. In that year, the
last for which statistics are available, the number of murders involving a firearm
declined to its lowest point in four years.

Of course, the Australians have always had tougher gun laws than the U.S. -
despite that country's own frontier history and its cultural similarities to the
United States. But in 1998, 54 Australians lost their lives to gun homicides, while
in the States the number exceeded 13,000. The gun homicide rate in the U.S. is
about 15 times that of Australia...and this is the nation the NRA wants us to
condemn!

The next time a credulous friend or acquaintance tells you that Australia
actually suffered more crime when they got tougher on guns...offer him a
Foster's, and tell him the facts.

****************

I heard that their "risk of being injured by a BG" rate shot through the roof? Who can counter act those stats?

Questionably,

Canuck84
 
54 Australians lost their lives to gun homicides, while in the States the number exceeded 13,000
Click to expand...

No self-respecting organization would put forth statistics like that to support their position. It is so easy to refute, that it makes all of their other hogwash even harder to swallow.

One, simple, logical question will defuse this embarassing statistical bomb. How many fewer people are in Australia than in the United States?

You can't compare raw numbers. I guarantee you that there were more people killed by avalanches in Colorado in the 90s than there were in Kansas. You have to look at societal factors as well. The *rate* of suicide as a percentage of the total population is much higher in Japan than it is in the U.S. This has nothing to do with guns, as they are very rare on that island nation; but everything to do with their society.
 
Source: US Census Bureau International Data Base, 1998

USA-274,943,496............ ranked #3 in population
Australia-18,950,108....... ranked #53 in population

14.55/1 population ratio

For a modicum of credible statistical significance, you need to
1) compare demographic data...such as areas of concentration of homicides (urban vs rural); if urban, size/pop. density
2) racial/ethnic data
3) indigenous cultural data
4) ancillary contributory data....were drugs/alcohol involved? Other crime involved? spousal effects (relates to culture)
Stats can be a useful tool when properly analyzed, but just tossing out raw data is meaningless and dishonest. This is moreso when attempting to explain human behavior.
 
Hmm...

Well, I can see how Aussie murders would be lower in 1998 than say, 1996, a year in which one mass murderer accounted for probably at least 1/2 of the homicides. These statistics are just that. Statistical numbers with no analysis or logical means of comparison.

Let's find some meaningful numbers. How many law abiding citizens in Australia have managed to defend themselves against armed assailants in a given year? Hmm...?
 
"In 1998, the rate at which firearms were used in murder, attempted murder, assault, sexual assault and armed robbery went down. In that year, the last for which statistics are available, the number of murders involving a firearm declined to its lowest point in four years.

"Of course, the Australians have always had tougher gun laws than the U.S. - despite that country's own frontier history and its cultural similarities to the United States. But in 1998, 54 Australians lost their lives to gun homicides, while in the States the number exceeded 13,000. The gun homicide rate in the U.S. is about 15 times that of Australia...and this is the nation the NRA wants us to
condemn!

"The next time a credulous friend or acquaintance tells you that Australia actually suffered more crime when they got tougher on guns...offer him a Foster's, and tell him the facts."


The facts? We need to see the trend in the total murder, robbery, rape, etc. rates by all methods to evaluate this. If you eliminate guns, obviously crimes committed with guns will decrease. But will the overall crime rate decrease or increase? If criminals wielding knives, clubs, and fists become bolder because the weak can no longer protect
themselves, the violent crime rate will go up, not down. Your chances of getting mugged, or your house burglarized, are now much higher in the UK than in the U.S., and the sudden popularity of home invasions in Australia is well documented, as is the general increase in violent crime. As usual, gun control has succeeded primarily in rendering
law-abiding citizens less able to defend themselves.

(It's somewhat similar to arguments about the availability of guns and suicides. Make guns less available and the gun suicide rate goes down, but the total suicide rate does not go down, because people just substitute other means.)

It is also not true that Australia and the U.S. share a similar frontier history. In Australia, which was originally settled as a British penal colony, the aboriginal population was subdued almost immediately, and posed little threat after that. In Australia, in fact, there wasn't much
of a frontier, because white settlement hugged the coastline, and few Europeans even tried to settle in the vast, desert interior where contact with the native population was likely. In the U.S., in contrast, armed resistance to European settlement was widespread and
fierce, continuing until almost the 20th Century, and land had to be fought for farm by farm by armed settlers. Australia also did not fight a war of independence, and has no Second Amendment or militia tradition calling for an armed citizenry. The historical/cultural/demographic
experience of the two countries is very different, despite the language similarity. The adoption of Australia-style gun controls in the U.S. would be a disaster.



[Edited by Byron on 02-03-2001 at 05:44 PM]
 
I know this is the thread I started but I dug around and found these facts. Gee looks like I might be able to trust CCWers after all 8-) I found it on TFL but failed to note the author. Sorry for plagurism (sp)
Thanx, Canuck84:

So the long term cost of gun control can be devastating, but we have also to educate people that every penny spent on gun control is wasted. Consider Australia after the recent ban of "dangerous" weapons and a huge buy back event:
One year after gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, including semi-automatic .22 rifles and shotguns, a program costing the government over 500 million dollars, the results are in. A dramatic increase in criminal activity has been experienced. Gun control advocates respond "Just wait... we'll be safer...you'll see...".

OBSERVABLE FACTS, AFTER 12 MONTHS OF DATA:
* Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%
* Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%
* Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44% (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
* In the state of Victoria,homicides-with-
firearms are up 300%
* Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
* Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
* There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly
* At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm"
* From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia had averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.
* Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns". Their response has been to "wait longer".

SOURCE : AUATRALIAN BUREAU OF STATISTICS
Violence on police rising 5feb99 ANOTHER police officer has fallen victim to violence. Police statistics showed violent crime against Victoria's police was rising, with more than 2300 attacks a year. Sixty-two police officers were attacked with knives last year, double the previous year. Threats and
injuries involving firearms were four times higher.
 
Gun control fact sites and support articles for those who may be interested. These cover Canada, Australia, and the UK.

United Kingdom:

The official UK site ror Figures/Regional Statistics

http://www.statistics.gov.uk

Article: THE SUNDAY TIMES: NEWS Official: more muggings in England than US

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/98/10/11/stinwenws01035.html?999

The Sunday Times: Editorial followup on mugging stats:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/98/10/11/stinweldr01001.html?999

English homicide rates 1857-1993

http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/archive/international/msg00028.html

Canada

Lorne Gunter on The Third International Crime Victimization Survey (ICVS3)

http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/~johnny/dunblane/icvs.html

Cdn-Firearms: The Canadian Firearms Home Page

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html

Canadian gun registry based on phoney statistics

http://www.ssaa.org.au/canstats.html

Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #3

http://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/Digests/v02n001-099/v02n003.txt

Cdn-firearms Digest index

http://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/Digests/

Index of /pub/cdn-firearms

http://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/

Australia

Lock Stock and Barrel

http://www.lockstockandbarrel.org/

Index of /Press Releases from Lock, Stock, and Barrel

http://www.lockstockandbarrel.org/Press Releases/

SPORTING SHOOTERS OF AUSTRALIA INC.

http://www.ssaa.org.au/

The Free Radical Online

http://www.freeradical.co.nz/
 
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