After Action Review

1

11B20

Inactive
Hello,
Long time reader, 1st time posting. This is a real event that occurred 3 nights ago. I have no need to be validated in my actions and am convinced that most of what I did was as correct as circumstances allowed.
The purpose of this post is to get more opinions from various other experience levels and if necessary, to reflect on possible corrective action for the future.
It will be as brief as possible but still contain the pertinent details.
Please, before spouting off on a particular point which you may need more detail on, ask and I will provide. Then, when armed with the facts,if you feel the need, fire away!

0330, awakened by car in drive. Very rural location. Grabbed G23 and 4 cell mag light, went to front door. Looked out, strange car in yard, told wife to get phone and stand by in door but do not go outside. Went on porch, lit up car with mag light and covered with Glock. I have 3 foot high cover concealing front of elevated deck so semi crouched and side stepped the 25' to the stairs, car was off by this time. I approached from passenger side, Unk. WM in drivers seat. Looked in passenger window, hands in lap, keys in ignition, no weapons present. Kept 23 in hand (yes my finger was off the trigger the whole time mom) but put my hand in the front pocket of my hoodie and put my head near the window. The smell of alcohol almost knocked me over. Called to the wife to get LE rolling. In my part of the world, at that time of day that means up to 30 minutes. I asked if he was OK, he slowly turned his head toward me and just looked, man was he plowed. In my best Infantry Sgt. voice I loudly ordered him to take the keys from the ignition and place them on the floor, he complied. The dilemma now is how to keep this idiot from a)hurting me or b)starting his car and getting back in motion before LE arrives without unlawful restraint. I need to keep him covered so I can't block him in with another vehicle and did not want the wife out of the house because I have yet to determine his level of aggressiveness.
In the interest of post brevity I will say we spent the next 25 minutes in a little dance. He got in and out of the car 3 times. Each time he got out I ordered him to sit on the hood, after he complied I tried to engage him in some sort of conversation but he just wasn't able to and got bored. Twice he got bored and tried to come onto my porch(I was about 10 feet off from him). Both times I interdicted by standing directly in front of him and with 23 in strong hand low ready, thumped him in the sternum with the mag light to get his attention, I informed him loudly and firmly that this was not his house and that I would shoot him if he tried to get in. I'm not sure if it was the words or the thumping but both times he stopped, blinked, turned around and got in his vehicle. Both times I took up a cover position on the passenger side (23 concealed again) and sternly told him to drop the keys on the floor, he complied.
25 minutes into the event SP showed up and took over.
To short circuit this, I did not know the person nor his personality and the reason I chose to conceal was to not unnecessarily escalate to a shooting incident. I also had pretty much made up my mind that if he got aggressive I was going to take care of him with the light instead of the gun although I was fully ready to shoot if need be.
I also think I might have been a little close but it allowed me to see his hands and I was able verbally, for the most part, to manipulate him with my voice. I do not think I would have been as effective shouting at him from 25' away.
I am open to suggestions and criticisms and will take all good faith posts in the spirit they were written. BTW, before anyone calls BS on this, weshoot2 can vouch for me and if he reads The Free Press dated today, also verify the incident, or at least what they printed. None of my interaction was mentioned but his arrest is there.
Oh yeah, 3rd DUI and he blew .23 in my driveway. 3X the limit here.
 
Well no one got hurt, you kept an idiot off the road :mad:and out of your house and since the Cops didn't thump you in the head and drag you off too, I'd say you handled it pretty good.:D
 
Well, here's another approach. I mean you had no idea what awaited you in that car at 0330 in the morning.

You could have just as well kept your distance, maybe even stayed in the house, or outside at a stand off distance from where you could observe the car carefully, and just waited for the cops to come.

It could be argued that you were way too aggressive to proactively engage the way you did. You exposed yourself to great risk by engaging in that way, and strategically it would have been much better had you observed (and still been ready to act in your) and in your family's, defense, by maintaining a stand off range.

But it is better to be lucky then good, and luckily it all worked out.
 
Good job on taking care of the drunk, I'm surprised he complied as much as he did. I agree with the other posts, however, that you should not have approached the car, and rather should have stayed on the porch and called the police. I just think it's too much risk to go across open ground like that. Now if you could clearly see the car was empty, and the guy got out of his car and started talking to you, then that's a different scenario.
 
Only you can asses the level of threat at that time. My concern would have been a passenger who you didn't see sneaking up while you dealt with the driver. In the end, it worked out, there's another drunk off the road for a couple hours. Good job.
 
Working in corrections at the county level as I do, we see a lot of drunks in our jail garage on a nightly basis and based on what you've written I can't say I would have done anything different. To stay back at a distance woudl have created an opportunity for him to escape and possibly kill someone, but to get any closer than you did would have been potentially dangerous if he got violent. That being said, a drunk with a good boil going is the most volatile person on earth and I would say you were lucky he did not get violent when you thumped him with your Maglite. But no one got hurt and the bad guy went to jail so I would say job well done.
 
My concern would have been a passenger who you didn't see sneaking up while you dealt with the driver.
Click to expand...
Same here, but don't know for sure I wouldn't have handled it the same way. Only thing I can recommend for sure is security lights. Don't need a Maglight much around my house.
 
Several weeks ago, a local drunk thought it would be cool to holler for help in the middle of the night out front of our place.

We live in the boonies, . . . 20 - 30 minute sheriff wait, . . . called them first.

My adult son and I went out with handguns and flashlights, . . . leaving my wife ready to phone in another call if needed.

I would only do that because we had each other's backs, . . . stayed together, . . . etc.

I would not have done what you did, . . . but I applaud you for taking another drunk off the roads, . . . even if it was only for one night.

If it happens here, . . . he can sit in his vehicle and wait for the sheriff. Too many other things could be on that horizon, . . . and I am too old to mess with them.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
To all who took the time to think and reply, thank you. I will digest all opinions.
For the "stay in the house" crowd; even though I carried for insurance, my first instinct and concern was an injured individual. No way I am going to wait 30 minutes for backup for an unknown situation if someone needed help.
For the "second suspect" crowd, agreed. It was a concern. Some mitigation; I could see once I was about 8' out of the door and 15' from the car that there was only one occupant; once I determined lack of weapons I had my wife switch the exterior lights on and we had good illumination for about a 45' circle; this is a 75' gravel drive at 0330 in a very rural (only background noise at night are owl and bear) setting. Sneaking up on me would have been hard, and the wife had my G17 close by her side.
Believe me, I am not posting these to argue my actions. I appreciate your mental efforts and just feel these facts may alter some peoples perception, if only a little.
 
"wee bit rural here, too"

11B20 asked me to "share any advice", so I'm going to do so here, publicly, on this Forum.
(Why? Because I know him, and I live in very similar circumstances, and apparently he values my opinion enough to ask for it.)

First, I'll fill in some 'personality points': 11B20 is a "stick" (vs "carrot") man.
He is a fair shooter.
He is willing to help, and to work.
He is not a punk.
He spits.
He has proved himself honest and honorable.

"Rural" around here means 30+ minutes for response on a good day; I am surprised he got such excellent response time. The State Police, our 'Blue Line' (outfitted in green), is one very thin line, with just 150 to cover the state.

Okay, enough blah blah blah, on with the assessment, which is based entirely on my personal opinion of family-saving behavior.......

-Big bashing Mag-Lite: mandatory.

-Gun: mandatory.

-Use of approach cover during assessment: good thinking.

-Calling cops: good timing to call immediately. Perhaps some might criticize your delay, but I think I understand why you waited until after initial assessment -- you wanted to know more first.
In an environment where cops are more common, it makes sense. Here, I believe we feel like we need to confirm an actual need for them first, before taking up any of their precious time already stretched so thin.

-Post-assessment actions: Once determined that you were dealing with a drunk, you used the right tools, your command voice and your basher. (Note to others: a big bashing flashlight is truly one of the best devices for home defense, because it allows for force escalation without gunplay.)


So, in my opinion, great job.


Now comes some negatives:

-Might have just observed, and waited, and then decided if any action on your part was required;
-Might have asked the wife to cover you with her firearm;
-Might have stayed out of reach;
-Might have told him to leave while still on your porch;
-Might have done some other stuff.

But I might have done pretty much the same thing, too.


-Bolt: couldn't, because you were in your castle.
-Bellow: you did, and it mostly worked, even through the drunken fog.
-Brandish: you didn't, I assume, and that was wise, because drunks then act bullet-proof, often insisting on calling your bluff.
-Bash: yep, a sternum-thump got his attention and apparent respect, and you weren't required to use your gun as a thumper. There is great value in having a big bashing flashlight next to your gun.
Bullet: no shot fired; no shots required.
Good, because there are uncountable ramifications for shooting another human, and killing is already over-rated.


SO, what is your after-action assessment?
 
well I must say u were very lucky too. Since u didnt know the intentions, an accomplice might have been hidden somewhere. IMO not a good idea to go out there.
 
Thanks to all for participating. It's a long weekend and the potential for lots of people to have a bad time with their expected German visitors (Gustav and Hanna) prompt me to wrap up. A reasoned and intelligent discussion, as I expected from the good folks on this board. Hopefully some people (besides me)benefited from this thread. I just figured that a real "it happened to me" would be far more beneficial than the "let's pretend 60 gang bangers armed with machete's and grenade launchers storm your bedroom, what do you do?"
scenario :D
So, weshoot2 asked; "SO, what is your after-action assessment?" Fair question.
I have taken 3 things from this, and your comments;
1. My choice to point at the target initially may have been pre-mature and a lesser strong hand "ready" condition (say a low ready) may have been just as effective.
2 The distance thing. Kind of intricate to discuss in a post but there is a trade off between safe distance and being close enough to this particular individual to keep him under voice control as it were. After dissecting I think I made the best decision under the conditions, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me feel in hind sight but will continue to evaluate
3 The crossed wrist, mag light & weapon hold. (sorry, don't know the term) was incredibly strange. My watch was in the way, I kept fidgeting etc... I now know that I need to take my mag light to the range, assume this position and actually practice firing from this position.
This is my last interaction on this thread. Thanks to all who posted again and my Southern Brothers, stay safe and keep your powder dry.
 
Job well done.

You kept a drunk off the road and no one got killed.

Just be careful "thumping" people. A drunk in a more p.o.'d state may have wanted to fight or you could end up getting charged with assault. I think that's just as much a judgement call as deciding when to use a gun though.

:cool:
 
My I make one suggestion...

take a potato with you, the shove it up the exhaust.
No way will the car start.

Only if certain no second person around.
 
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