advice on engine buying..

R

Rob Pincus

New member
Looking for someone out there who may have BTDT, where it comes to buying a replacement engine for a late model vehicle.

Maybe some of you saw the half-facetious post I put in the Marketplace section about selling my 1996 Chevy C3500. The engine has suffered a permantent failure. I guess it is a Y2k-1 problem. My warrant is non-compliant, so I need a new motor-thingy (note the technical language to clue you in on my mechanical aptitude..don't suggest that I rebuild it myself!)

options so far:

New 454 Vortec direct from GM: $4400 + $800 labor
My engine Remanufactured through dealership: $3500 +800 install labor
My Engine remanufactured directly through Jasper: $2450 +800 install labor

The last option seems to have the dealership hemming and hawing about "variables"... funny thing is they use Jasper to remanufacture the engine too, they almost **** when I pulled out a print out of an itemized estimate from Jasper after they explained why they used them and how great an reliable they were adn I wouldn't want to use anyone else unless I was foolish. (I love the internet).

I didn't just take the websites word for it, I called Jasper direct and explained the whoile situation, they assured my that it was exactly the same thing the dealership was going to do, but the dealership added a $1000 bonus for themselves, they faxed me an additional signed, detailed estimate.

Is this a no brainer.. or do I worry that now I've pissed off the dealership and I need to go somewhere else? Or do I really need to bite the bullet and buy a new OEM engine ??

(btw- the new toy budget for SHOT show just took an ugly hit either way.... :()

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 01-13-99).]
 
Rob, you just can't win can you?
I'm really sorry to hear about your truck,but keep :D it's got to get better.
BTW sorry I can't offer any advice know very little when it comes to that sort of thing.

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Justice for one,Justice for all.
 
The Jasper deal sounds a bit high (As a do-it-yourselfer, I live in a permanent state of sticker-shock.) but it may be as good as you'll do in today's world. Is their deal a fully-rebuilt engine with "new everything"?

For that price, try to keep your engine and get it rebuilt at your leisure, as a spare. Unless it's all busted up inside, as in "a wrecked enjin", it oughta be worth $500 or so as a "rebuilder".

How bad off is your engine? Strange grinding noises from inside? Oil pressure gone away? Rods knocking? Blowing gobs of smoke from broken rings or a holed piston? Break a valve? How many miles on it?

If I needed an engine and didn't have personal time for a rebuild, I'd phone wrecking yards, for a 30- or 40-thou mile engine for maybe $1,500 or so--possibly less. I checked a local place here, one time, and a 350 with computer and transmission was $2,500.

Feel free to holler direct. This sorta stuff is what I've been doing for 35 years.
 
Rob,

Rob,

I've torqued a coupla main bearing bolts in my day.

Check the warranty length (in writing) on all of the motors and sources, and be sure it includes warranty of the labor and replacement labor costs, in addition to the engine, should the motor go TU again.

All other things being equal, I'd go with the company that makes a living out of building engines, not padding estimates for parts & services, or hyping the next year's model to the point of disregarding those customers' currently on the road.
 
First: I need to be on the road ASAP.
2nd: No Mom & Pop shops for this one, I can't be driving 6 states away and need to call billy bob for a repair.
3rd: Warranty is definitely gone. I have all the original paperwork. I put too many miles on vehicles.


Jasper is offering a remanufacture of my engine including new parts as folows:
pistons, rings, bearings and timing components, valves, valve springs, retainers and lifters.
All other casing and components wil be remanufactured to OEM specs. THey assemble and test the engine before delivery (water temp, oil pressure, vacuum...)
new engine includes Block, heads, oil pump and pan, timing cover and finishing gaskets.
36 month or 75k mile warranty on remanf. engine.

That sounds good to me, at $2000 less than a new engine. What do you think?
 
I put a Jasper engine in one of my vehicles about 4 years ago. It ran out just fine, at least long enough for me to sell the ride. So I dont know about its longevity - but it worked...
I also switched out the engine in my wife's Geo Metro. It had the 50 hours power 1 litre 3 cylinder XFI engine in it. I found a wrecked Zuki Sprint in the junk yard... The Sprints are the same cars, but some of them had 4 cylinder turbocharged engines in them that could crank out 145 horses (with some minor modifications). Easy swap.
The little bugger takes off like a shot. Put it into the Small and Fast catagory. :) We still have it as a back up car... The XFI could get almost 60 MPG - and with the Spring power, we are getting less... 48 MPG. It likes to cruise at 80 MPH, which shocks other drivers when the get passed by a GEO.
I prefer the Caprice for comfort - but the little Geo is fun.
Maybe you could swap out your old engine and drop in a secret weapon of your own... turn your old beater into a real Q ship (refrencing WWII freighters fitted with hidden heavy anti ship weapons).

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
"Sir Heckler"
 
Go with Jasper. I agree with Mykl that the best bet is the national company that does it for a living.

I am wondering about the cause of the failure. I tried this morning to do some resaerch on this for you and came up with precious little. Unless you ride your truck *real* hard, I can't understand blowing that engine in <100K miles.

Point is, if the engine has a weak design point (eg: valve train, pistons etc), this might be the time to look for a fix.
Rich

p.s. For those thinking that this is an off topic thread, Rob is also gonna put a customized Gun Rack in.


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 01-13-99).]
 
Rob - glad I get a chance to return the favors. I've been in the new car business for about 14 years on and off, and currently in financial management for 10 stores. (prior to that, service stations, motorcycle shops and so on) So, this is one area where I feel somewhat qualified to respond.

Please don't be too hard on the dealers - that's how all retailers make money - we buy at a low price (in volume), and sell at a higher price. Believe it or not, the average <u>net profit margin</u> in this business, even in good times like now, is <u>between 2 and 3%</u> (i.e. we make around $2.50 on every $100 in sales). Front end gross profits (i.e. new / used cars, finance and insurance) are quite low in most stores - back end gross (parts and service) are critical to keeping a store in the black. If we don't mark up what we sell, we can't pay for rent, electricity, parts countermen salaries, interest, and so on. I know you all realize that already. I won't dispute that dealers are sometimes the more expensive option. We are geared more to working on cars under warranty than we are to competing with the local independent garage. However, we also invest much more in training and special tools than that competitor does. And, if it is a quality dealership, we'll stand behind our work.

However, this doesn't answer your question. Jasper is not a familiar name here in the West. However, if they have a good reputation (web site looks good!), then there is nothing wrong with a rebuild. Done properly, a rebuilt engine (brakes, alternator, etc.) should be just fine. All depends on their workmanship. Assuming they truly replace all worn parts, build to proper spec's, use good quality bearings, etc., then I'd go with the rebuild. And, as indicated above, I'd go with a company that does this day in and day out. Too much variability with individual technicians / mechanics. However, rebuilding is the best option IF you intend to keep the vehicle.

*** Now, if you really want to just sell the truck as soon as possible - definitely go with the used engine. This is the cheapest route I have found. Usually works out just fine.***

The question above about what is exactly wrong with your engine is certainly pertinent. However, I'll assume you already know that the block and heads are shot (that could also affect your core value on the rebuild - you should be getting some kind of credit from Jasper on returning your 'core' engine). If the heads aren't shot, they could put in a short block (block, crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons), and that would save you money.

Regarding the labor, the dealership would likely want to raise its price if they don't get any gross on the parts. [I remember people driving us nuts at service stations by bringing in their own oil for an oil change.] I'd try bargaining with the dealership. If the relationship with them is shot, then try another dealer, or a local garage or speed shop that does work you can trust. Swapping in an entire engine doesn't take a rocket scientist, but you want someone who has a reputation for quality work - it certainly can be screwed up.

One last thing - I would suggest putting in exactly what came out. That is, it is usually a bad idea to change engines (e.g. 350 vs. 454) - can damage the value of the vehicle. OTOH, if you're going to keep the vehicle for a very long period of time, that consideration matters less.

Good luck.

ps - used engines can often be had quite quickly. And, it is a little known fact that you can usually put a service contract (warranty) on most cars just before the factory warranty runs out. Bargain hard, because there can be some significant gross in these contracts. But, for people that don't want to take a hit like Rob's, it can be one solution. For me, I 'self insure'. ;)

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited 01-13-99).]
 
Hey, I thought "General" didn't need to be gun related....


Anyway, I forgot to mention that my first thought was to upgrade, but there are none of the new 6.0 Silverado 2500s available and I don't see buying another old body style 454 . I'd be out even more cash to buy a new vehicle anyway. Because of the Race Team I need to have some serious pull. While a 350 1500 series will pull the rig, I don't like having a trailer that wieghs more than my truck, nor do I like slowing down to 45mph on steep hills when travelling the interstates. Besides, in TN, anything over 10,500 GVW is exempt from emmissions testing. It is also large enough to not need Airbags.

As far as being too hard on the dealer, Jasper is charging me (retail) $1000 less than the dealership. I assume that the dealership can get the engine from Jasper for less than I can, but even if they pay $2500, that is almost a 30% markup.. Which I find unreasonable. I was upfront and amiable with the service manager and told him that I was sure that if he could save $1k witha phone call, that he'd do it too. He retreated and said that his was a "worst case" price, and I said that he knew as well as I did that if I okayed $3500 it would be at least $3500. I've got nothing against a guy making an honest buck, in fact, I offered him $2800 for the remanufactured engine, explaining that keeping the business in town and with them was worth $300 bucks. He acted like I was insulting him and said that wasn't how they did business. Fine with me. I'll pay them for the labor, same as before, but looks ot me like they just lost at least $350....

The cause of the failure is apparently either an oil leak or my negligence, probably a combination of both. Over the past few weeks I've made several long distance short time trips (one 1800+ miler round trip in three days with about 5500 lbs of trailer weight on the return leg.). About a month ago I noticed the Oil pressure dipping sporadically. It had been about 4500 moslty hwy miles since my last oil change, so I wasn't really worried. I added a quart, pressure came up everything was okay.

Over the course of the last month I've aded about 3 quarts to the engine, but apparently the oil pressure gauge (nor the temp gauge, which never varied) is not a good indication of "everything is okay with the oil." I learned that lesson the hard way when the pressure dropped quickly and the engine started making loud clunking and grinding noises. I was about 2 miles from my house. When I got home I opened the oil fill cap and thick yellow/grey smoke was billowing out. not good. The rest, and the engine, is history. I find the whole thing odd, the mechanics assumed I had justed run the engine dry until I explained the situation and showed them reciepts from the last oil change. Now they find it odd too.

I'm gonna order the Jasper Engine tomorrow, unless someone has a good reason not to. FWIW, Jasper promises 10-15% more HP over OEM with the same gas mileage with the new engine, "performance" (which is the equivalent of "tactical" in the car/truck world) parts are available for additional fees, but my truck is not a mustang (regardless of how I drive it, as my wife keeps reminding me ;)) and gas mileage is as important as power in this particular vehicle.

Thanks for the great input, guys.

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-Essayons

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 01-13-99).]
 
Rob; Since you are not too far from Memfuss check out Racing Head Service.
You might end up with a real tuff engine.
They do real good work.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Rob I personally have had little experence with Jasper. However, this is what I do for a living and I have heard some bad stories about them. I am under the impression that in recent years they have cleaned up their act considerably. The only first hand experence I have had is the shop that I work at put a Jasper motor in a Pont Sunbird with a 2.0 The car later came back with a blowed head gasket, We repaired the vehicle and I remember the owner of the shop was going rounds with Jasper trying to get money for the warranty. My advice U get what U pay for in life. GM warrantee is good at any dealership. My $.02 worth
 
Rob,

I am a journeyman heavy equipment mechanic, with about 10 years in the trade between 1974 and 1985. (Then I went back into uniform).

Here is my take on this:

Bottom line: Buy the Jasper engine.
Drive it a few thousand miles (under 25,000 miles) then trade the car off.

Why?

Jasper will rebuild the engine on the cheap, that is though the put it new parts, the reconditioned parts are probably not OEM new quality. So the water pump, oil pump, bearings, rings, will not be as good as OEM. The pistons will be probably be exactly the same as OEM, and the rings too. The gasket set will not be OEM grade. The timing chain will be OEM (they are good for about 100K).

So unless you are going to drive this ride for another 100K I would take the Japer rebuild and put 25-40 K on it and sell or trade it. This is the cheapest present cost.

The new engine is not a bad deal, but the extra bucks is hard to justify unless the body is rust and dent free, you really like the ride and will drive it at least another 100K. If not, plan on trading and buy the engine from Jasper. Inquire around and find a good independent who will install it.

%$#@%$$%^$$#%)(*&()*&R$% dealers. They pay their wrenches in a manner that encourages corner cutting, and cry about their overhead, then they mark up a $800 labor part by 1100 on 2450.

I try not to do much with dealerships. Their real motivation is to encourage you to trade.
They will give you nothing for it cause it is "on the hook" (hanging from the back of the tow truck). Then they fix your car on the cheap, sell it for more than your would dare ask. They rape you and their customer.

I recently bought my first car in 9 years. It was a used, high end low mile SUV. Vehicle was "fully serviced" and had a 11K price tag, I offered 8.5K out the door almost in jest and they sold it to me.

About a week or so later (I was really without a vehicle and needed transportation so I really did not "inspect" the vehicle well prior to negotiating. "Fully serviced!" apparently means equiped with the original fuel filter at 49K and several years old!

I would not trust the average car dealer any further than I could throw his building with my support hand!

Good luck!

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Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael
 
Thanks Micheal,
(no offense Jeff....) your opinion of dealerships is about the same as mine, I see. I had the displeasure of working for one for about 2 weeks one time. I sold 5 cars and made less than 8% of the profit from the deals. You can add most of the salesmen to the list of who gets raped. It was ugly.. I could rant, but I won't...

Anyway, as for keeping the truck... the only reason I've had it this long (between my wife and I we've had 9 different cars and 3 different motorcycles in the 5 years we've been married) is because it fits what I need very very well. It'll be two years this April, I will probably trade it at the end of the next racing season. I'll put 25k on it by September and get rid of it then.

Daren,
Thanks for the input, but I've gotten an overwhelming response (offline) in support of Jasper.. they are well regarded around here, perhaps because they have cleaned up their act.



[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 01-14-99).]
 
Rob-
I've made my living turning wrenches for over 25 years, so listen up.
Jasper is the way to go. They do good work and will probably to a better job on the installation than the dealer. They have a good warrenty and nationwide service.
But, before you shell out the money you might try this. You said the truck was a 1996 model. Call the Factory rep for your area. Sound very angry and upset when you talk to him. Mention that the truck is only 2 years old - several times. And above all go on about how you're going to tell all your friends what a piece of crap that engine was and how it should have lasted alot longer. Play it up bigtime! Auto makers hate bad publicity and know how damaging word of mouth talk can be. The factory guy just might allow some warrenty credit and save you some more money. It's a long shot, but I've seen it work before. Besides, it'll make you feel better to unload on them! :)
 
Thanks for the idea..
I am actually working on a deal right now that will make me a lot more moeny from Chevy Trucks than this engine is costing me, and I don't want to end up bumping into some guy up the chain who heard me spas out on the phone. I'm glad to hear another good report about Jasper... Let me ask you, when I talked to the people at the HQ in Indiana they said nothing about the option of having them install the engine. Tell me more.

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-Essayons
 
Well, I'm used to getting beaten up about auto dealerships, but there are good and bad in each business. Rob, good luck with that truck.
 
Some of the larger dealers have an in-house shop for installation. Remember that engines are their bussiness and they always try to do the job right. If your dealer doesn't install, I'm sure he can recommend someone who will do it right and cheaper than the car dealer.

[This message has been edited by Grayfox (edited 01-14-99).]
 
Been around motors and wrenching, both cars and bikes, for a while now. There was a post earlier that had a reasonable idea. From your description, sounds like the bottom end is toast. Stick a fork in its *ss and flip it over, it's done. What about the top end, though? Might turn out to be cheaper to have the bottom end rebuilt or replaced while keeping the top end of the motor, and the money might be reasonable enough to have it done at a dealer, where you would have a GM warranty for the parts and labor. Having the heads freshened up while the bottom end is being done (they have to take the heads off anyways), might leave a bit of "discretionary" funds available for the SHOT show. ;)

I'd still like to know what actually happened to cause the failure. Might have a big bearing on what kind of core charge you can get when you turn in what's left of the motor.

[This message has been edited by DonL (edited 01-14-99).]
 
Rob, somewhere in this thread someone recommended going to a wrecking yard and finding a late model wreck w/ as low miles as you can find. i've done it in the past and it worked out well. you may want to look at that option, call around and at least see what's available. could save you some bucks.YMMV!

either way good luck!
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fiat justitia






[This message has been edited by longhair (edited 01-14-99).]
 
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