advice - caliber choice and a rant

C

conrad carter

New member
I visited a favorite local gun shop today to browse the controlled rust and stainless gun offerings and while stepping around a conversation I overheard the salesman turning the customer away from the G29 to the G23.
The fellow was told that the 10mm was a "hunting round" that was popular 10years ago and he'd be better off with the .40.
I was taken aback on several levels. The first was that not all 10mm ammo is hot and good choices exist for social work. (This just makes the gun more versitile.) The second is that one of the reasons the fellow in AZ is rotting in prison because he "used a hunting caliber". The third is that if I were to go hunting I am not sure the 10 would be my first choice. Sure, folks generally would use the .357 the 10mm and the .41 mag for the same kinds of animals but for me, I'm better armed with something else.
I never hear these comments about other calibers - only the 10 and frankly I think it is doing shooters a dis-service. It's turning a good choice into a red headed step child that men of both sexes are encouraged to avoid. I'm not inclined to buy a PC gun to shoot people with but that seems to be a trend.
 
Isn't it ironic that the 40 is the red-headed stepchild of the 10mm? A round designed SPECIFICALLY for federal law enforcement has become a "hunting" caliber not well suited to SD?
People are ridiculous.
 
If you get caught up in the things you hear over a gun counter (or in this case, things you overheard), you'll get frustrated quite a bit. And lots of salesman say lots of things, and sometimes it's precipitated by his audience.

I've followed the progress of the 10mm cartridge since about 1988. I started my work with it in '92. I'm a big, big fan of the round, but I don't pretend that it's something it isn't and one of the most truthful opinions I have of it is that it's an enthusiast's caliber and is really a rather lousy choice for joe lunchbox who owns a handgun or two and isn't a hardcore hobbyist.

The things that I love about the 10 are also the same things that make it a poor choice for many folks. It's violent, over powerful for some things, doesn't fill a pistol with 18 shots, factory ammo selection and choice is (relatively speaking) horrific and the selection of hardware is slim. It doesn't make the best subcompact out there and likely isn't a great defense choice for a good percentage of people, for a number of very good reasons.

The "hunting round" is basically gun rag hype from 15+ years ago, not 10... the round never really was. Nobody ever accused it of being a proper deer cartridge, and anything less than deer you could just as easily do with any number of other cartridges and more suitable platforms.

I love the round, and I feel like it's something for "me" since I've felt like I've spent a lot of time and energy with it. But I don't begrudge a salesman pushing handguns to direct the lion's share of gun buyers away from it and toward something else.

IMO (feel free to disagree entirely), the kind of folks who are right for 10mm, and the kind of folks for whom 10mm is right are not typically the kind of folks who walk up to a gunstore sales counter looking for advice.

Those kind of folks come to a place more like this.

I think a lot of people on these forums really lose sight of the fact that TFL discussion forum types are hardcore gun folks, and are probably not the big share of the typical gun store's clientele.
 
My understanding was that the 10mm was developed in response to the FBI-Miami shootout in 1986, which when first studied seemed to indicate that the FBI needed a more potent handgun than the 9mm's that were used in that fight. In actual practice, the 10MM guns proved to be more handgun than many agents could handle effectively, and in a redesign, the 40 cal. was born that today is standard FBI carry (and is used by many other LE agencies too).
I don't want to hijack your thread but I've recently gone back and re-read for about the tenth time everything I could on that 1986 shootout; and you know how when you re-read a book or re-see a movie, there's always something you notice that eluded you the first time? Well, this time, a couple of things hit me that I never thought about before and I've never seen any discussion about it anywhere - so I'll discuss it, but I'll start a new thread to do it. But, on this thread, as far as hunting with 10MM or 40 cal handguns is concerned, I don't hunt so I don't know whether a 10MM is a good hunting gun or not, or a 40 cal. either for that matter. But Charles Bronson in Death Wish should have traded in that silly 32 for one.
 
"My understanding was that the 10mm was developed in response to the FBI-Miami shootout in 1986..."

Incorrect.

The 10mm was introduced in 1982/83 in the Bren 10 by Dornhaus and Dixon with the initial ammunition being loaded by Norma.

IIRC Jeff Cooper had a lot to do with the design of the gun and possibly the cartridge, as well. Cooper had always been mightily impressed with the CZ 75 military pistol, and the Bren 10 was a design variant of that with a cartridge more potent than the 9mm.

The 10mm jumped to the forefront when the FBI started looking at it as a possible replacement for the .38s, .357s, and 9mms that were all authorized for FBI carry at that time.

While it's possible that a 10mm might have stopped the Miami shootout before things went REALLY wrong--Mattix or Dove, can never remember which one took an unsurvivable 9mm hit in the opening seconds of the fight--there's absolutely no guarantee that a 10mm would have converted that hit into faster incapacitation.
 
The second is that one of the reasons the fellow in AZ is rotting in prison because he "used a hunting caliber".
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Refresh my memory on that. It seems to be some prosecutors trick that some incompetent defense attorney let him get off. Stupid argument, either the shoot was justified or it wasn't and it doesn't matter what you used. I carry a 10mm with full power ammo.
 
If you get caught up in the things you hear over a gun counter (or in this case, things you overheard), you'll get frustrated quite a bit. And lots of salesman say lots of things, and sometimes it's precipitated by his audience.
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Bingo. I have been to many gun shops over the years, and shot the bull with many a clerk behind the counter, and can count with the toes of one hand the number of times I ran into a clerk who was an expert on every firearm and cartridge offered for sale.

Fact is, with the wealth of information (as well as the pro-and-con debate of same) available for free online, there's no particular reason to lend much credence to the wisdom of someone who's paid to sell you stuff. Not that the average gun shop employee is a bad dude; exactly the contrary is normally the case. Normally, they tend to be the kind of guy I'd happily go for a beer with. But...working at a gun store doesn't make you an expert on guns and ammunition - it makes you an employee at a gun store.
 
If you go into a gun store not knowing what You want. ( do the homework on your weapon choice ).

Or

You will leave with the weapon the sales person would buy.
 
...I agree with that thought, but with a caveat: I would say that there's perhaps a good many folks owning/running/or working sales at gun shops that may indeed be very, very well informed and experienced, at least as much as I or anyone who frequents these forums, however, in their business, they had to deal with a very wide array of folks on the other side of the counter.

They have to be able to work with folks who don't know a trigger from a hammer, or a bullet from a cartridge. They have to deal with folks who know just enough to make them dangerous. They deal with mall ninjas of every age, size & shape. They have to deal with a slew of real curmudgeons, of which our hobby is brimming with. And in the end, they have to serve this clientele and make sales.

Two sentences that someone overheard doesn't even begin to offer any detail on either party, and really doesn't mean much of anything.

There simply HAS to be a number of gun dealers and shop owners who are at least as astute as many of the folks who post in this forum. But overhearing a conversation might not clue you in to that fact.

I've met more gun dealers who appear to be L-O-N-G since burned out in dealing with the public and it shows. I find that some of these folks lack proper human interaction skills, but I wouldn't use that as a blight against their knowledge in the industry or the hobby.

But many times when I spend 3 or 4 minutes chatting with one of the enthusiasts who I do "get" and who "gets" me, I always make it a point to find something, anything I can use no matter if it's an average buy or not, just out of respect for the place I'm in and the guy on the other side of the counter.
 
Regarding getting caught up on statements from gun shops, I'll say the same thing about Comments from the FBI.

Folks the FBI is a good police agency, but THEY ARE NOT THE END ALL OF FIREARMS INFORMATION.

Some of the dummest comments I've heard regarding guns comes from the FBI.

Remember the old days, the FBI taught peopel to shoot squating with one had, the non shooting hand covering their hearts.

The best one. A while back, I was taske to assist the FBI in their LE Firearms instrcutor developement course. This was when the FBI come with a report that the 9 mm was a more potent defence round, (man stopper if you will) then the 357. We got into a pretty good debate about this one.

They do come up with some good ideals once in a while, like the Model 13 S&W for a LE Service Revolver.

Now they are suppose to be the End All of Snipper Training. Well the FBI started their sniper program by going to the AMU for training, but thats another story.

Every one has an opinion, its fun reading them, but nothing and I mean nothing beats doing your own testing and experimenting to see what works for you.
 
But you would have to give some credit to the commercial "success" of the 10mm cartridge to the Miami shootout. It can be argued that the shootout led to the FBI's quest for a more powerful sidearm caliber, which led them to the 10mm, which absolutely led Smith & Wesson develop pistols to compete for the contract (which won), and may have also helped Glock elect to build the 20 and some time later, the 29. If not for S&W and Glock, the Delta Elite might have been the last 10mm on the scene, with none to follow.

Colt gets credit for keeping the round from dying before the FBI's search for a pistol, but S&W's part had a large hand in the viability of the round.

Of course, you can also lay a lot of blame for the relative lack of popularity at the feet of S&W when they abandoned the cartridge in '94 to push their pet .40 S&W.

(but 10mm guys also realize that the colossal popularity of the .40S&W round does greatly benefit us 10mm handloaders with a wide selection of bullets)
 
Not to cause more aggrevation, but I agree with the salesperson...and you as well.

The 10mm CAN be called a hunting cartridge. It can also be called a SD cartridge though; it'll do what's asked of it, as long as you don't exceed it's limitations.

Looking at the stat's, it's almost identical to the .357 in just about every aspect (when loaded to full potential), except the SD of same weight bullets. In that respect, the .357 has an edge.

I owned a G20 for a short time. Unless you handload (I do) or buy Double Tap ammo (or a few other makes, I'm sure), the 10mm ammo that's loaded currently is pretty much identical to .40 S&W loads. It's anemic from the original intended load, but still costs a not-so-small fortune (when and where you can still find it).

And I'm one who believes that you really shouldn't use handloaded ammo for SD, especially if you're loading it above what is considered "normal" factory loaded spec's. The 10mm, when loaded to it's full potential, is loaded above what most factory ammo is loaded at. It's a fact, like it or not, and might very well cause problems in some circumstances when used in a court of law.

For social work, the 10mm will work; so with the .40 S&W. They're pretty much identical in most factory loads, except in price. For hunting, the 10mm has a definite edge, IF you use ammo loaded to the original spec's for this cartridge. For me, I prefer a more powerful revolver for most hunting situations, so it doesn't matter.

My opinion, worth what was paid for it.

Daryl
 
Before I ever bought my first handgun, I went to a gun show. I was looking at different semi autos like glock, ruger and beretta. I went up to this one table and ask the guy if he had any 10mms. He replied and I quote "no, but a 40 S&W is what they call a 10mm short "" ''I have several 40s' here'' I was 21 and didn't know if what he said was true or not. So, I didn't purchase from him. I instead went Grady's and bought a P89 9mm. I asked a few questions from one of the clerks. He then asked me a few questions about my experience with guns. He basically said that since my experience had mainly been with 22lr's I should start out with a 9mm. That is what I did. He sold me a p89 for $299. He could've stepped me up to something alot more expensive, but he didn't. I have since returned on many occasion to purchase weapons from them.

I learned early on to ask questions and rely on facts instead of opinions and conjecture.

BTW, Has anyone ever heard of a 40s&w called a "10mm short"? Just curious?
 
BTW, Has anyone ever heard of a 40s&w called a "10mm short"? Just curious?
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While you could say that it was called the .40 short and weak. What happened is that the FBI had trouble training with the full power 10mm. They starting requiring lower power loads. The cut it down to the point that Smith and Wesson said, "Hey, we can put that in a shorter case!" And the bastard 40 s+w was welped. I still call it the short and weak, I never liked it much.
 
Actually, it wasn't the FBI who was responsible for the invention of the .40 S&W.

Almost from the start wildcatters had been experimenting with the 10mm casing, and at least several developed versions that were very similar to what would become the .40 S&W.
 
Is a .40 S&W a 10mm short? Yes and no.

You can't make proper .40 S&W brass from 10mm brass because the case head is different-- the 10 is thicker in the web and if cut down to .40 S&W length, it would have just short of the same internal dimension, which would inherently increase the pressure. Also, the .40 uses a small size primer, the 10 uses a large primer.

IS the .40 S&W pretty much a slightly shorter 10mm? Yes. And the idea and bother of creating it (a joint effort between S&W and Winchester, mostly driven by S&W) was to be able to use 9mm frame size pistols as the basis for the new round, while 10mm pistols use a larger frame.

When S&W debuted the .40 S&W round, Glock was unbelievably quick in adapting their pistol to shoot it and if they didn't actually beat S&W to the commercial market with the pistol, it was freakishly close.

The .40 S&W caliber might be the largest nearly overnight success story of ammunition in the last helluva lot of years. Many calibers have been born in the last hundred years, but none of them have vaulted to their place in popularity in quite the sensational jump that .40 S&W has.

And in case you are curious, NO you shouldn't shoot .40 S&W ammo out of a 10mm without a barrel change because it headspaces on the case mouth. A .40 round might discharge in a 10mm and it's likely quite safe to do so, but it would only happen if th extractor managed to hold the case in place while the firing pin whacked it. It's not at all like shooting .38 Special out of a .357 Mag revolver.
 
The cut it down to the point that Smith and Wesson said, "Hey, we can put that in a shorter case!"
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Well, yes, but there's more to it than that. The shorter cased .40 will fit and function in pistol frames designed for the 9mm Parabellum, where the 10mm won't. The smaller grip diameter made it easier to shoot by persons with smaller hands, and ballistics tests showed the milder .40 load performed just as well on human-sized targets as the 10mm, not wasting a lot of energy on the landscape (or, more to the point, bystanders) behind the target.
 
40 SW.the caliber thats fills a void between 9mm and 45 acp.that works for any situation you might need.
 
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