Accuracy with a fouled barrel

C

Colorado Redneck

New member
I posted here a few weeks ago about a Rem SPS Varmint .204 Ruger I have. The accuracy has been less than stellar, and there were lots of good suggestions and comments. In a nutshell, I was thinking the barrel would foul and after 3-4 rounds the group would open up. So I would thoroughly clean the bore by brushing and swabbing etc. Was disappointing to say the least.

Well, the last trip to the range, that rifle went along, with a hundred rounds. My thought was, I am going to shoot the heck out of the thing, as if this were in a well populated prairie dog town. If it doesn't work my way, then maybe firelapping would be next So here is a picture of the target. I started on the bullseye in the middle. First two rounds were pretty good--then the group opened up and as you can see, it went to about 3 inches, which ain't my idea of OK. After about 10 more rounds, the hits went back toward the intended point of impact. After a few more that were hitting pretty nice, I moved to the lower left diamond on the trarget. As you can see, out of 12 shots fired, 11 were less than one inch. That is acceptable, since over 12 shots I am probably most of the cause of that size group.



The moral of this story: cleaning the barrel may be over rated. I think maybe brushing is the culprit. Art Eatman posted on a thread about how he has a rifle with a few thousand rounds through it that he has seldom used a brush on.

Anybody else experience anything like this?
 

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Before deer hunting I'll take my rifles and shoot a few fouling rounds through them. They are then dead nuts ON! ;)
 
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I clean my hunting rifles twice a year. Once in late winter before I start the load development for the next year, and in late summer when I've settled on my hunting load. In late summer, after I've cleaned the barrel, I begin shooting one-shot groups. I'll take the rifle with me to the range and fire one shot to verify zero, then I'll put it away. Next range trip, one shot to verify zero. Next trip, etc, etc. After a half-dozen range trips I'm satisfied that I can put that first, cold barrel shot where I want it.

Over the course of a hunting season, I may only fire another four or five shots through the barrel. So, from the last cleaning, it's had maybe a dozen shots down the bore.

I'm convinced, after looking at hundreds of barrels in used gun racks, that most barrels suffer from over-cleaning. Especially those actions that can't be easily cleaned from the breech. I've seen several barrels that had muzzle/crown damage from over-cleaning.

I agree that a clean barrel is nice, but many rifles shoot just fine from a fouled bore.
 
Some rifles indeed have different CCB (clean cold bore) and CB (cold bore) points of impact. My Savage doesn't (proved that during the last precision rifle course. If you have never checked it, you have never checked it, you should. Helps insure you next deer gets hit exactly where you expected that bullet to go.
 
The exception to the fouled barrel situation is when shooting soft copper bullets like the Barnes TSX and major fouling occurs. I found that velocity rose after a very few rounds from my .270 Win and pressure signs were evident on cases. I didn't shoot more than about 12 rounds because of the obvious signs.

Since changing to Hornady GMX bullets (gilding metal), the problem disappeared. It never occurred when using Nosler Ballistic Tips, Sierra 90 grain HPs, or any other gilding metal/lead core bullets.
 
Actually, I have never used a brush on any of our rifles.
Patches, and Wipe-Out...

Every rifle is different, some shoot better from a clean barrel, others- not.

Have you used a cleaner that removes copper fouling from the bore?
 
I shoot with an F Class National Champion who would only clean her 308 every 500 rounds if she could. Unfortunately hubby runs off with her rifle and cleans the thing, something she wishes he would not do. :mad:

Hubby says "she will never clean the thing!" :eek:

When we have talked about barrel cleaning, she says she sees the group size shrink as the clean barrels foul, and finally, after a number of shots, the group is stable.

There is something to be said about only performing deep cleanings when accuracy goes south. Frank White of Compass Lake told me of barrels that were shooting poorly and it took JB Bore paste, an abrasive, to remove impacted carbon from the throat. Chemical cleaning is not enough, the impacted stuff he saw had to be mechanically removed.

However, JB is an abrasive and I believe it will cause wear.

I have had barrels that were at the end of their service life, like 4000 rounds through a 308, and after a deep cleaning these barrels took up to five shots before the zero stabilized. I must have added three MOA as the barrel fouled when I shot it standing slow fire. After that I decided to just shoot the things, wipe powder fouling out, to avoid rust, but no more copper remover or bore paste.

My 308 Douglas was still shooting HM scores at 600 yards, but was not clustering like it used to.

Rimfire shooters, I know shooters who never clean their .22LR match barrels. And they shoot very well.
 
I'm one of the ones who has never been lucky enough to own a rifle that shoots good out of a clean barrel. Every one of mine needs fouling shots. Therefore, once sighted in they don't get cleaned (at least the bore) until I'm getting ready for the next hunting season.
 
A properly cleaned barrel should shoot pretty good right from the start, From your description and image I would not be surprised if your particular is heavily copper fouled, you might want to check it and your cleaning procedure.

It should not take more than 3-4 fouling shots.
 
Is the rifle copper fouling? If so,you may need to lap the barrel.
A rough bore will cause it to copper foul quick,and you will see an increase in group size.
I have a 25/06 that was a big problem,and it took some time to get the bore straightened out.Now it will shoot excellent groups.

I clean my rifles after each range session,but on my hunting rifles I leave them fouled unless they start falling off during the season.
 
range report

shot this morning from a fouled cold bore.
 

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Thanks for the input

1. There doesn't seem to be a lot of copper fouling, but then I have never been able to see copper in any barrel. I haven't used a copper solvent on this rifle-- yet.:D

2. Before this trip to the range, the rifle had maybe 200 rounds through it.

3. Given that the primary use for the gun is to shoot prairie dogs, it is shot repeatedly with no fooling around to keep the barrel cool. 30-50 rounds per hour in 90 degree heat is common.

4. After these results, I will try patchs, wipe outs, and in the field the good old bore snake.

5. Any more large groups maybe clean using CR-10.
 
Clean barrel

I'm cleaning the rifle tonight using a copper solvent. And all go to the range and shoot another group. That lilttle flyer was my falt If I hadn't jerked it that would have been a good group.
 
In my experience, you'll always see more consistency in your shots after shooting 3-5 fouling rounds through a recently cleaned barrel. I never go hunting with a just-cleaned bore.
 
A brand new rifle needs to be fire lapped, short of doing this, 20 or thirty rounds will go a long way in removing the little burrs in the rifling. Copper fouling will actually fill in any slight imperfections in the barrel and will improve accuracy. Other than a couple of oiled patchs to remove powder residue PRIOR to going to the range. I only completely clean a barrel about once or twice a year depending on how much the rifle has been shot.

This has worked for me, it might help you as well.
Jim
 
Agreed. For the most part just shoot it.

Gale McMillan said:
The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling.
Click to expand...

Custom barrels are in far better spec and aren't cut with a dull reamer and most smiths would never let the reamer go as long as a factory.

Not to go too off topic. As it's a "to each his own" type ordeal
 
I have several rifles that don't seem to need cleaning, and a couple where cleaning is required to keep them accurate. My 22-250 shoots good all the time with out cleaning, but my 223 VLS needs to be dry patched every 25 to 30 rounds. In the medium sized bores I can't remember when the 243 was last cleaned but my 25-06 is dry patched every 50 to 60 rounds. The 7mm's seldom get a patch and it does not seem to effect accuracy. (7mm-08 is still fairly new so can't say for sure).
I have a friend in So. Dak that shoots lots of P dogs he shoots only single shots and buckets of 218 Bees as well as 223 and 22-250 he never cleans a barrel. I know he has a Browning 78 / 25-06 that he bought when they 1st came out that has never seen a patch or brush in the bore.

I guess my thought on it if it's not broke leave it alone, if it is broke try fix it, if that don't work trade it.
 
Not cleaning centerfire barrels may not result in corrosion in dry climates, but here in the East, severe corrosion can result. In the mid-60s, I had a .22-250 Rem barrel pitted because I left it in the closet for several months. We sometimes didn't clean our varmint rifles during woodchuck season, then I forgot about it. In the fall, I checked the bore and could barely see through it. I soaked it with Hoppe's and rust remover and was finally able to get a cleaning rod through it. The bore was badly rusted and pitted and I was sick about it.

Fortunately, and unbelievably, it didn't affect accuracy. I took it to the range, expecting poor accuracy and keyholing, but shot a 5/8" group from prone without support at 200 yards! Still, I didn't want to keep a pitted rifle and sold it soon after. Haven't left a rifle bore unprotected since.

In the Seventies, I did a lot of gun repair for a local Sporting Goods store and several times had one-year-old Rem 742s come in because cases were stuck in chambers/and or had entire heads or portions of rims ripped off by extractors. Apparently, the rifles were test-fired, hunted with, then either stored without cleaning (or cleaned from the muzzle and the chambers remained dry). The first shot fired the next season from a rusty chamber caused a death grip on the case!
 
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