Accuracy Issue: Standing vs Prone

C

Chinny33

New member
Greetings.

I just came back from my 3rd Appleseed event. I made rifleman my 1st event with a score of 213. My 2nd Appleseed I scored a 227 and received the Orange Hat [for all you appleseeders who know what that is]

Anyways my 3rd Appleseed I scored a 202, which is my fault for lack of practice.

I have 3x 22lr rifles. a stainless 10/22 scoped. a Colt M4 22 scoped. a Magnum Research Tactical lite 10/22 [tricked out with a carbon fiber bull barrel weighing in a total of 4lbs], also scoped.

Heres my dilemma with all 3 rifles: How come I shoot high while standing and shooting low while in prone position? I am shooting at 25m. While standing the impact will be 1 inch high. While in prone, the impact will be 1 inch low. THAT A HUGE differenct at 25m. So I have a 2" differential from Standing vs Prone. Im not that great at kneeling/sitting so I couldnt say anything conclusive with the shots.

I know how to call my shots. It is especially easy with a 22lr's recoil and noise. I am calling the shots dead center and still there is a very noticeable difference in Standing vs Prone impacts.

Im putting the crosshairs ON the target! Is it parallax? Im using a redfield 2x-7x33mm scope. Is it an angle issue?

I have a funny feeling it is parallax, since im using redfield scopes, I know they are parallax adjusted for 100yds. but still how does that explain the standing vs prone impact difference?
 
Hello, Chinny33. It's not parallax..it is the difference in the way the rifle recoils from prone to standing. In prone, for the most part, your whole body is behind rifle, while in offhand, your shoulder is more or less unsuported & can move freely..I know this sounds strange with a .22 but it is there. Also, your head position is different, hence your eye position is also.
 
Never been to an Appleseed. How high are the targets off the ground? Could you be shooting uphill or down hill? In a prefect world (never is) you would be shooting level.
 
It's not really uncommon to have different zero's for different positions. If you can, set a zero for both and then just adjust when you change positions. The other thing is where you have the buttstock placed in your shoulder. Try to keep it in the same spot. Bringing your eyes to your sights instead of your sights to your eyes may be another issue especially on the standing. However, that's usually more of a problem for shooters using handguns. I don't think there is really a definitive answer without seeing you shoot, aside from the fact that zero's can change from position to position.

-Max
 
Is your cheek weld the same for both positions?

I purposefully have a stock with a high cheek piece for this very reason on my favorite 22 rifle; consistent cheek weld has aided me in achieving repeatable accuracy.

Let us know what you try and discover.
 
Chinny.....I've seen this many times at AS shoots. USUALLY the shooter isn't getting the butt of the rifle high enough in the pocket of the shoulder to align the sights property....causing the shots to go high.

Try this and see if it helps.....it sure did for me!

Ben
 
Is your cheek weld the same for both positions?
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That would be my guess too. You get a different sight picture with optics depending on your hold on the rifle; proper cheek weld should bring consistency between your shooting positions.

Congrats on the hat (Im an ITT) and Happy Patriots Day All!!!
 
It is quite common to have different zeros for different positions. I shoot high power and there is two minutes different between my Setting Rapid Position and my off hand, both at 100 yards and 200 yards.

If you have a proper position, you head cannot be in the same location for each. The different head position would normally give you a different zero.

Its not just standing vs. prone. I have different zeros for slow fire setting and prone then I do for rapid fire in both positions.

The "fix" (and not really a fix but a means to deal with it) is a "data/score" book, recording sight settings for each position and variances of those positions. You should be able to walk up to the line, and without sighter shots, put on your zero for any position and be in the X ring.

Take a gander at ISU Small Bore rifles, The have adjustable stock, butt plates, cheek rest, you'll find the shooter has recorded the change in the stock configurations as well as sight settings for each position. Even at 50 ft.

The 25 meter Appleseed targets are small, but nothing compared to the Pinhead size 10 ring of an ISU 50 Foot target.

Get a data/score book, record the calls, record the hits. Don't stop after you figure you got it down because zeros will change as you refine your position. Write down everything, record every change you make and the results.

If you try and use the same settings for each position, one or the other, or both wont be right.

It's hard to say exactly why you have such a major difference in zeros without watching you shoot.

I would recommend going to the CMP Bookstore and order two books, $6.95 each, put out by the USAMU/CMP, one is the "Service Rifle Guide" and one is the ISU or International Rifle Marksmanship Guide.

Item number 777 & 780 on the list.

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?
pg=catalogList&cat=BKS

If possible find a CMP-GSM clinic in your area, either the GSM vintage military rifle for Sporting rim fire clinics taught by CMP-GSM Master Instructors. They will help a lot in getting your positions down so you can obtain a proper zero for standing, prone, setting or what ever.
 
Hello fellow Orange Hat,

I would have to say your NPOA isn't on where you want you bullet to impact. Use your talking targets.

Get into your position; sling up; close your eyes; breathe in and out; open your eyes and see where those sights/crosshairs are pointing.

If you don't trust yourself with obtaining that NPOA, then get someone to card your sights:
1. Find your NPOA
2. Have a partner obstruct your sight picture with a card (just something that prevents you from seeing your front sight and target)
3. You partner will tell you to breathe in, and breathe out with your eyes open.
4. Your partener will remove the sight obstruction and YOU (the shooter) will now verify if you actually had NPOA in the first place. If you didn't, your NPOA will not be where you want you round to impact.

We all know that targets don't lie to shooters, but shooter's can lie to themselves. That's why NPOA is so very important to firing the shot, because if you don't have NPOA, your shot WILL NOT impact the desired point of aim.
Get relaxed and find that NPOA; if you're not on target, shift your hips, and check that NPOA again till your relaxed position brings the sights on your desired point of impact.

Don't ever fire the shot unless TRUE NPOA is established.

PM me if you have any other questions.
 
can you explain what the NPOA. From context I am getting that its where your crosshairs would naturally point in resting position?
 
This is the best article I've read in a long time regarding Off Hand Shooting, it also covers natural point of aim. Natural point of aim is simply aliening you position where as you close your eyes, dry fire, open your eyes and see if you are still lined up with the target. Get a good position, line up, close your eyes, take a deep breath, let it out, open your eyes, if the sights are not perfectly lined up with the target you need to adjust your position. For wind age, move your feet a tad, (keeping your feet no less then 90 degrees from the target.) For elevation, adjust your non shooting hand, either back and forth on the stock (keeping bone support) or extending your fingers.

Check out this link on shooting offhand.

http://www.odcmp.org/1007/default.asp?page=USAMU_STANDING
 
Does anybody here use the "tip of nose to charging handle" method? I was taught to do that with AR's, and it works pretty well for me as far as getting a consistent sight picture.
 
can you explain what the NPOA. From context I am getting that its where your crosshairs would naturally point in resting position?
Click to expand...
You are correct!
Eventually the shooter will find that sweetspot with NPOA and adjustments will either be minor, or not necessary.
 
A couple of thoughts on the subject from someone who is not a position shooter, but knows a bit about shooting accurately:

1. Rimfire rifles tend to move in recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel, so it's especially important to be consistent with the holds/position for each shot. Heavy rimfire benchrest rifles shot "free-recoil" can move about 1/4 inch rearward before the bullet leaves a relatively long barrel. That's why follow-through is so important in rimfire shooting. (High velocity centerfires don't move much until after the bullet clears the muzzle.)

2. A heavy "cheek weld" is difficult to consistently apply. I use very light cheek pressure on the comb, not trying to lock the rifle in with the face. That allows the rifle to recoil more consistently from position to position.

3. The off hand fingertips under forend method can cause the rifle to shoot higher than when shooting prone. I hold the forend with my off hand with the left elbow against my ribs, not my hip. That works better for me. My rifles are also free-floated, so minor changes in hold or rest don't throw shots as much as firmly-bedded barrels. The only exception to the floating is my 10-22 bull-barrel, which has an 8 lb upward force pressure pad. No sling is used with that rifle.

4. I don't shoot prone anymore. I'm too old for that crap, but am a pretty fair offhand and sitting shot. Kneeling is way too unstable to be useful to me in the field. It introduces unfamiliar motions that disturb my concentration.

I hope this helps. Your results may vary.
 
Does anybody here use the "tip of nose to charging handle" method? I was taught to do that with AR's, and it works pretty well for me as far as getting a consistent sight picture.
Click to expand...

Yep.
 
2 common possibilities:

1) inconsistent cheek weld, altering your POI.
2) possibility of differing sling tension altering the POI.



Many other good suggestions in here regarding NPOA, but being that you've shot 210+ before, your NPOA is probably not your problem.
 
quick equipment check. When you get into position, you neck stretched all the way forward, cheek welded to the rifle, is your scope far enough forward for proper eye relief? or are you having to move your head back to get it? With your cheeck welded, is your head high enough to see through the scope properly? Or do you have to hold your head up some? Improper scope alignment is one of the most common things I seed on appleseed lines.
 
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