Accuracy, how much do you need?

J

Judge Blackhawk

New member
I have read all about how accurate this firearm is compared to that one and vise versa.

Here is my question.

How accurate do you need a firearm (ie handgun) for combat purposes?

1 inch at 25 feet
2 inch at 25 feet
4 inch at 25 feet
6 inch at 25 feet


Here is why I ask this question, I have shot many different handguns over my life time and all will out shoot me, that is they are more accurate than I am. I am not a bad shot and I have won my share of local handgun matches.

How much does ammo choice affect the accuracy of your handgun??? Does match ammo make a better shooter???

Is there a correlation between expensive match ammo and tighter groups? Is it like the old addage spend twice as much on your speakers than you do on your stereo system???

I have a Sig P-228 that I carry and it is fine for accuracy, but it is not a target weapon. I have a S&W (bought 15 years ago) Model 41 that is dead on period. But I would not carry it.

So how much accuracy do you need for your hand guns that you use on a daily basis.

Thanks for the help and opinions

Judge Blackhawk


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Gun Control is the acceptance of the death of the innocent victim in exchange for the life of the criminal perpetrator.
 
No larger than 6" at 25 yds in a PDW, 4" at 50 yds in a big game hunting pistol. I've never tried match ammo in my pistol, I look for the most powerful round that meets my control and accuracy needs. Good ammo is a key part for best accuracy. All brands of .357 mag 158 gr will not go the the same place in the same size. For pratice I use whatever is the cheapest at the gun show that week. By checking group size and placement off the bench I know weather accuracy problems are me or the deal of the week. And I agree Judge, I've never had a pistol that with good ammo couldn't out do me.
 
In the current arena of mid to upper end autoloaders, just about all of them, in good condition, can outshoot all of us at ANY given range.
Different loads will affect accuracy in that heavier bullets tend to hit higher than lighter ones, and the same for slower/faster, for any given point of aim. This is, however, only a matter of degrees, as it may change an inch or less, depending on the firearm.
Don't forget that each gun has it's "favorite" load, which it will group tighter than other loads.
I've shot military match ammo in 9mm and 45. It's main advantage is CONSISTENCY, allowing you to adjust your sights/gun/technique combo to the ammo instead of chasing it all over the target. It will only make you a better shooter in that it allows you to concentrate on the fundamentals of shooting (grip, stance, trigger control, breath control, etc.) in a match style setting. For combat style shooting, try IDPA.
I'm quite happy with my Sig 229/40 which loves 165 HydraShoks (5 rounds in a 2 inch group at 25 yards) and 180 Golden Sabers (similar group) from a rested table. That's better than I can do from any combat stance in any IDPA scenario, but thankfully the ranges are usually under 15 yards, and the gun makes me look really good that close!!!

Tom


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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
Wake up and realize that you have the moral imperative of action..!!!
 
I'd say groups no greater than 2 inches at 25 feet. Preferably 2 inches at 3 times that distance (25 yards).

If the "average" gun fight is 21 feet or less and you're trying for a CNS (head shot) at that distance (21 feet)then Murphy's law coupled with normal "shooter error" could easily put you off target with a gun grouping greater than 2 inches at that distance.

A 2 inch group means that any given shot may be exactly centered - or any where up to one inch off center. If you can normally shoot a 3 inch group with that gun in practice - then that means that on any given shot you are adding an additional error factor that may either compensate for the pistol's "error" (by bringing the shot back closer to group center) or add to the pistol's error and push the shot as much as another 1/2 inch from the center. Murphy's law would say that in the worst possible situation your maximum error would be added to the gun's maximum error for that critical 1st shot.

Practice will serve to minimize the normal "shooter error" but I wouldn't want to depend on a gun that added too, too much to the group size over and above what I'm quite capable of adding all on my own. And of the measures you stated - I'd pick the 2 inches at 25 feet as the max. I'd except from the gun.

This is purely my opinion and others may well disagree.

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Jim Fox

[This message has been edited by JimFox (edited June 03, 2000).]
 
I'd say that 2" accuracy at 25 feet is acceptable for a defensive handgun.

I'd also say that trying for a head shot on a subject that's shooting back would probably be a very low percentage play. I believe most defensive experts when they say that the best chance for stopping the attack is shooting at the center of mass, it's the biggest target.
 
set up some combat type human form targets at various distances. be sure to include ones that show human forms in semi profile or partially hidden by barriers or hostages. if you can hit the kill zone with regularity that is good enough. if you are shooting for target accuracy that is different.
my S&W 4006 will shoot a 155 grain National Bullet Company copper coated SWC into 1 inch at 25 yards if i do my part. my wife's stock 226 Sig will do the same with PMC FMJ.
but i repeat you do not need that kind of accuracy for self defense. many rifles have had their barrels worn out buy anal retentive shooters who thought you could not hunt a deer with less than a 1 inch group.

i had a friend who's father in law had hunted deer on his family farm all of his life. he regularly killed from four to eight deer each year and was a constant source of venison for the entire family. at his death my friend inherited his Remington 788 rifle in 6mm Remington. rifle was stock and all this guys loads were handloads using an old Lee loader. we tested his rifle using his left over ammo prior to the first deer season after his death. we were unable to get the rifle to group less than 3 inches at 100 yards. yet this rifle was responsible for the death of hundreds of deer at ranges from 10 to 250 yards (by looking at his stand sites). point being it is the nut on the end of the handle. the shooter and his or her skill that means the most. most modern guns will out shoot you.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
This is always a good question. You don't need much accuracy for combat type shooting with a pistol. At high speeds none of us can shoot up to the pistol.

The problem you run into is that most of us are hobbyists. I frequently read how people cannot outshoot their pistol. I can outshoot some of the pistol/load combinations I have in slowfire and am not Superman. This makes for much dissatisfaction.

All of my practice is not rapid fire combat shooting. Even when just plinking, if I hold correctly on that tin can at 25yds I expect to hit it. The gun/ammo combination needs to be capable of 2.5 to maybe 3 inches at 25 yds to hit the can everytime if the hold is perfect.

This argument can be applied to triggers also. If you become an experienced double action revolver shot, you can do really well on small objects at 25 yds. But that is only with a good trigger. A herky-jerky trigger will leave you frustrated. The herky-jerky will handle all of your gunfights just fine, but isn't nearly as satisfying to the connoisseur.
 
My personal accuracy requirement for a self defense or IDPA/Plate gun, is that "I" can put 10 shots (or one mag or cylinder full) into a 3" bull at 30' rapid fire. I'm sure most of the guns out there will do that, but my requirement is that I can do it with a particular gun, consistantly, with full power ammo.

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Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter
 
2" at 25 yards. 3guns' 6" at 25 could put a round into a hostage. My "what if" is a bg with one of my family- can I make the shot- 6" is way too loose for me.
 
My personal requirement for the gun is max of 2" at 25yds. Then it is up to you to be able to draw and dump two or three in the kill zone. Massive amounts of good advice in the previous posts.

Sam
 
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