accuracy differences with dies

98 220 swift

New member
I have been shooting lately trying to get my groups as tight as possible. Been wondering about the different dies and if they will help with accuracy. I use lee dies for the most part. I use their full length die with semiautos and the collet neck die with bolt actions. I was wondering if there really is a difference with the more expensive dies? I see people all the time putting lee dies down. I have some rcbs and a few others. actually I prefer the lee dies. Has anyone actually done any testing with different dies with a accurate rifle? My ar with a 24" bull barrel shot a .43" 5 shot group at 100 yards this past weekend and is a fairly consistant .5" rifle. I have been playing with the 6.5 creedmore in a savage model 10t-sr and a ruger American predator. just wondering if I am leaving some accuracy out there to still get. I don't have a lot in the budget just to try out a lot of dies to see it they work better.
 
The die brand or type used has nothing to do with accuracy. Meticulous loading techniques do. As in weighing each and every powder charge and using match grade bullets.
 
The die brand or type used has nothing to do with accuracy. Meticulous loading techniques do. As in weighing each and every powder charge and using match grade bullets.


I do this already. I weigh each case and bullet as well. Try to keep cases as close to same weight as possible.
 
Try to keep cases as close to same weight as possible

why ? instead of wasting time on something that does not matter instead concentrate on things that do like uniform neck tension, making sure the primers are uniformly seated and the powder choice and and powder charge are suitable for that bullet. Spend time at the range testing bullet seating depth.

Weighing charges and case volume are time waster that some idiot tried once to show he was more OCD than the next guy. He or she probably had crap trigger technique or lousy wind/mirage skills and was looking for an excuse on why his shooting sucked.

On the other hand it might have been a world class shooter with a great sense of humor laughing his butt off because some one asked him what the secret was and he decided to play a prank.

Now back to your OP. Try Redding bushing dies and bush them to take the neck about .003 smaller than your bullet. Lee collet neck sizers will work also. When the bullet is seated check for bullet runout. With the Hornady tool you can tweak slightly out of concentric bullets back into play. Try for .001 or less runout
 
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The die brand or type used has nothing to do with accuracy. Meticulous loading techniques do. As in weighing each and every powder charge and using match grade bullets.

Precise volume loading is more accurate than weighing. Dies have a tremendous impact on velocity. Think BUSHING die. Think precision seating die.
 
74A95,

If you think extreme precision technique is not discussed here, you need to read more past posts. We get well into the weeds on many occasions. This forum is just fine for such questions.


98 220 Swift,

The Lee dies are actually quite good when used properly. Their standard sizing dies are, I believe, the only ones honed to final internal dimensions, so they are very round in cross-section. However, the expanders in the Lee dies or any other conventional die can pull case necks off-axis. I've been able to reduce that by using carbide expanders in other brands that have a separate expander retained by the decapping pin chuck. But there are other ways to skin that cat, including using a mandrel for expansion or a Lyman M-die to expand a bullet seating step. The Lee collet dies seem to produce neck runout as low as any die I've seen. A number of us size the neck with that, and the case body with a Redding Body Die until the shoulder is about 0.001-0.002" shorter than it was coming out of the chamber. The body die is not terribly expensive as Redding dies go, and it does not touch the neck, but you are looking at two operations for resizing instead of one.

The only expensive die I am aware of that actually makes a difference I've measured is the Redding Competition Seating Die. Here's a link to German Salazar's tests with it. My own experience with it was achieving a 4:1 reduction in runout with .30-06 as compared to Redding's standard seating die. As Salazar's targets show, actual reduced group size results. I know Richard Lee says he does not think it should work in principle, but for me, it does better than the Lee Dead Length seating dies do. There are ways around that by employing extra steps, but that's getting outside the scope of your question.
 
This is something that always draws fire, but here goes...

Your basic CHAMBER is supposed to be SAAMI specification.
Since the chamber is *Supposed* to be SAAMI specification, the brass/loaded round is supposed to ALSO be SAAMI specification to fit that chamber.

This DOES NOT happen, every manufacturer has their own twist on chambers, mostly because of lawyers.
The chamber is intentionally built a little sloppy so it accepts & contains a wide variety of manufactured ammo SAFELY, and so customers don't throw a hissy fit when cheap/poorly made ammo won't fit...

Another reason in oversized chambers is the popularity of auto-loaders.
Lesser made auto-loaders need 'Slop' to allow rounds to chamber (and the reason 'Accuracy' guys often default to manual loading rifles).

When your chambers are 'Precise', the ammo also has to be precise to fit that chamber.
(See the long list of Ruger American loaders that have to 'Cam Over' presses to get reloads to fit the very same chamber, Ruger American having a precisely cut chamber that people call 'Tight').

There is a seemingly endless supply of 'Precision' dies that allow you to size the different case sections accurately, to your chosen specification.
From case sides (body), to Datum line (shoulder 'Bump' to fit chamber headspace), to neck size.

It's up to you what you want for your application, but be aware this is a rabbit hole you can get lost in!
Unless you buy up a LARGE lot of brass so all brass you use/size is EXACTLY the same composition alloy, and you have a PRECISE annealing process, the brass itself will change as it's used, creating a difference in the brass no matter how accurate your dies are.

For common consistency I suggest a die that closely fits the chamber you already have...
Let me say that again,
Find, or modify dies to closely fit the chamber you already have, and use those dies for that one particular chamber.

Common dies often WAY over work the neck of brass.
They deprime the brass, while fired brass has an expanded neck, the depriming pin and expanding ball enter the case.
The case neck is then forced into neck sizer, WAY undersizing the neck, working the brass too much, then as the brass is pulled out of the sizing die,
The expander ball is dragged through the neck further overworking the neck.

Honing out the neck of common dies keeps the over work to a minimum.
This die is made to mash down the THINNEST neck brass, so thicker brass necks get seriously overworked.
The idea is to open up the die neck just enough the expander ball contacts it for proper sizing, to retain the bullet in the case neck.

The converse is true also, when your bullets drop into the case, or you need a crimp to hold bullets in the case when chamberings the round, simply hone/lap down the expander ball a little to increase neck hold on the bullet.
This often elminates the need for crimping which can mess with consistency.

The dies are NOT sacred, it's perfectly acceptable to modify dies to specifically fit ONE chamber.
You don't want excessive wear on your fitted dies, and the rounds those dies produce might not fit other firearms in that same caliber correctly.
 
German Salazar test is little misleading. If you read what he said about the Wilson you would think he never used one.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek091.html

Go down page and German has picture on what he using to test loads and it's Wilson seater. I'm assume the one in his test is same one that he's using.

Redding makes bushing FL or Neck sizer and doesn't use expander. Wilson makes arbor neck busing die without expander.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/whidden-gunworks-sizing-dies-and-micrometer-seaters/
 
why ? instead of wasting time on something that does not matter instead concentrate on things that do like uniform neck tension,

Yes, go to neck tension and become an expert reloader. I use bullet hold, when it comes to bullet hold I want all the bullet hold I can get. I measure bullet hold in pounds, I know; all the reloaders on all of the reloading forums would be more impressed if I talked in terms of 'tensions, but I can not measure 'in tensions' because all of my tension gages are calibrated in pounds.

Available to reloaders are load cells and presses that measure effort in pounds, no hocus, no pocus just go straight to seating bullets in pounds; problem, there is no conversion for pounds to tensions.

And? If the reloader wants to check his work he can use a bath room scale.

F. Guffey
 
There is no time "wasted" in reloading. There are no steps "that do not matter". Some people enjoy reloading and all aspects/steps are fine (I find time spent trying to determine neck tension very low on my list of things to do). Reloading is mostly a personal thing where some steps/operations may be eliminated and still produce safe, accurate ammo, but unless one is in a hurry, no time is "wasted"...

I often do "unnecessary" operations on my handloads just to keep my hand in the process, but because I'm reloading for the sake of reloading it's all good...

I agree with Mr. O'Heir that the major deciding factor is the feller that pulls the press handle. A conscientious reloader can make good, accurate handloads on inexpensive, entry level equipment, but a sloppy, rushed reloader prolly won't make good reloads on the most expensive, most sophisticated equipment...
 
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Accuracy difference: Reminds me of a contest; they say an old man? came to the contest without a rifle so they loaned him one and they furnished the ammo. I do not know how he determine it was the rifle and not the ammo but they took him to an armory where other rifles were available. He checked a few 'rack rifles' and then picked one.

He returned to the contest and because of the delay he got a late start. He was most impressive with his skill, Again, he used the same ammo, in three years 100 years will have pasted.

Accurate ammo and the ammo makes all the difference??? The rifles in the links above look expensive. I have a rifle I paid $120.00 for. Gluing the action? The $120.00 rifle has the action and barrel glued, and then (there is always an 'and then') the glued to the stock action and barrel is mounted into the stock and nothing seems to be 'what it is'.

So I took the rifle to the range to determine what the rifle liked 'OR' to determine if the man that build that ugly rifle knew what he was doing. The rifle liked everything I shot in it. I used new cases, once fired cases, commercial cases and surplus cases, I also used 270 cases that necked up to 30/06 cases, And I used different powders and bullets. Not bad because I purchased that ugly rifle for the sum of the parts.

F. Guffey
 
I have been shooting lately trying to get my groups as tight as possible. Been wondering about the different dies and if they will help with accuracy. I use lee dies for the most part. I use their full length die with semiautos and the collet neck die with bolt actions. I was wondering if there really is a difference with the more expensive dies? I see people all the time putting lee dies down. I have some rcbs and a few others. actually I prefer the lee dies. Has anyone actually done any testing with different dies with a accurate rifle? My ar with a 24" bull barrel shot a .43" 5 shot group at 100 yards this past weekend and is a fairly consistant .5" rifle. I have been playing with the 6.5 creedmore in a savage model 10t-sr and a ruger American predator. just wondering if I am leaving some accuracy out there to still get. I don't have a lot in the budget just to try out a lot of dies to see it they work better.

Boy I am lost on this. Could you define tight as possible for me? The most inconsistent thing about rifle group's is the guy shooting the rifle! All our tools to reload are made to closer spec's than the guy shooting the rifle!
 
Don,

The shooter, rifle, ammunition and other related equipment (like reloading equipment) are ultimately all part of an overall shooting system. The fact one part of that system is the dominant source of error does not mean the minor error sources contribute no visible effect on paper at all. One works on all parts of the system in trying to increase performance.


Old Roper,

I think it's going too far to say Salazar is being misleading in any way. The picture shows his range loading kit. He may well do what I do and have one set of equipment for the bench at home and different gear that goes in the range load development box where it gets knocked around more. You'd have to write and ask him the reason for the choice under that situation. He may keep the Redding seater on a press on his bench. Either way, though, it doesn't change the results shown in the article.
 
Unclenick, If Redding was best why use Wilson. They make combo press you can mount on a bench for threaded dies. So you really don't care what he uses vs what he testing. I can buy that
 
I have a Redding type S for my .260 but have been using the Lee for my .223. I was curious as to how much better the Redding was before dropping the money for one in .223. I was also trying get a few more FPS out of my 120 SMK load so I sized 15 cases with a Lee collet neck die and 15 with a Redding type S bushing die with the expander ball removed. Redding won the bullet runout contest hands down, but the Lee had acceptable results. I will upgrade to a Redding for .223 eventually but I am in no hurry


Peterson SR cases which were depinned, cleaned,annealed, trimmed, and chamfered. Fed 205's.

Redding type S sized:


Name: 120 SMK Varget 38.7
Shots: 5
Average: 2851 FPS
SD: 7 FPS
Spread: 19 FPS


Name: 120 SMK Varget 38.4
Shots: 5
Average: 2866 FPS
SD: 11 FPS
Spread: 31 FPS


Name: 120 SMK Varget 38.1
Shots: 5
Average: 2825 FPS
SD: 9 FPS
Spread: 24 FPS


neck sized with a Lee Collet:


Name: 120 SMK Varget 37.8
Shots: 5
Average: 2767 FPS
SD: 7 FPS
Spread: 18 FPS


Name: 120 SMK Varget 37.4
Shots: 5
Average: 2748 FPS
SD: 6 FPS
Spread: 17 FPS


Name: 120 SMK Varget 37.1
Shots: 5
Average: 2727 FPS
SD: 4 FPS
Spread: 11 FPS
 
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OP, I havent been reloading as long as many here (like unclenick, Nick cs, hound, and guffey). That being said I've reloaded a fair amount, measured very few groups that weren't sub moa, and have put a lot of rounds that I've loaded downrange at distances many never get to shoot. With the groups you describe, I would say you've been around a bit yourself. Me personally, once.I reach a half minute in rifle/ammo ability, I stop messing with it. If you want.to shoot benchrest there may be value in it, if not then you are at your point of diminishing returns.
 
Unclenick wrote:
I've been able to reduce that by using carbide expanders in other brands

I have carbide expanders from Hornady (now out of production), Forster and Lyman. I have been very satisfied with the Hornady and Forster units as they can survive an encounter with a Berdan primed case. The Lyman unit, in my experience, cannot. And Lyman's customer service has been abysmal.

I asked to buy a replacement expander rod from Lyman since I didn't think damage caused by a Berdan case was something they should be responsible for. They disagreed and said it would be replaced as a warranty issue. That was in 2016. I'm still waiting for their warranty replacement. In the meantime, they won't sell me a replacement expander rod since one is due to be sent out "when available".
 
JeepHammer wrote:
This is something that always draws fire, but here goes...

No fire intended here.

I reload 223 for five (5) rifles. Two (2) ARs, Two (2) Mini-14s, and a Savage Axis. The ARs and the Minis have chambers that are far more "generous" than SAAMI specifications. The Axis, on the other hand, is "tighter" than SAAMI specifications.

Between careful adjustment and gentle lapping, I have been able to get a single set of regular (not small base) dies to load ammunition that will work in all five guns interchangeably. So, by all means, don't be afraid to do some light "smithing" on your dies to make them work for you.

I should also mention that with the Savage, cases reloaded with the standard dies that are fired from the Savage are segregated and for future firings are neck sized to ensure that the bass is worked as little as possible.
 
I can see someone trying to get an average but to use one die the reloader must match the chambers first, I would suggest starting on the shortest chamber after determining the length of the longest chamber.

And then there is the possibility of a reloader reloading for 10 chambers with the one set of dies. That is double if the reloader has a good understanding of threads. I never lock the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

F. Guffey
 
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