What affect does the flimsy plastic stock on the savage axis stock have on the overall accuracy of the firearm. I ask this because I'm thinking about ordering a laminated stock from boyds. I have several loads worked up that will shoot MOA at 100 yards and I don't want to load a bunch more if it is likely that I'll have to rework the loads after the change.
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accuracy and stocks?
- Thread starter riverratt
- Start date
603Country
New member
I'm sure plenty of folks will give you all the answers you want, but in my personal experience if the stock isn't touching the barrel at any time you are probably Ok for general shooting and hunting. Couple of years ago I bought a Ruger Hawkeye in 223. It was on sale when I just happened to be looking for a 223, so I bought it. It was stainless with that plastic stock. It wasn't shooting that well (which turned out to be the scope), but I replaced it with an aluminum bedded channel stock. Well, to be honest, it might have shot a little bit better. Maybe. But it was heavier than the factory plastic stock, so eventually I put that flimsy factory stock back on the rifle. It shot just as good, which is pretty darn good, and the loads worked up with the other stock shot in the same place with the factory stock. If you go with an aftermarket stock, I'd suggest that you get a light one and not a heavy one.
I guess you could look at it in one of two ways. Leave it be and enjoy the loads that are working for you and worry that the stock might go haywire down the road. I'll come back to that. Or you could do the restock job and rework the loads and not worry bout the stability of the stock. Of course there is the fact that the rifle may or may not shoot better in the new stock.
Back to the first point. I have a nice Winchester M70 Stainless Classic I got into on the cheap. It's a .338 Win. Mag. and it has the worst factory plastic stock I've ever seen. Not only is it as flexible as a snake on a hot frying pan, it's so lightweight that the recoil is intolerable. I'll probably invest in a laminated stock sometime after the first of the year, maybe a Boyd's and maybe someone else's. I did do a foam fill on a Winchester M70 Youth Ranger that I'd replaced the stock with a Ramline. Made the stock a lot more rigid and the rifle, a .308 Win. BTW extremely accurate for what was technically a cheap rifle that I won in a raffle. Not all that pretty but it works. I got lucky with that one as the changes in bedding improved accuracy with no change in the original load. Naturally, YMMV.
Paul B.
Back to the first point. I have a nice Winchester M70 Stainless Classic I got into on the cheap. It's a .338 Win. Mag. and it has the worst factory plastic stock I've ever seen. Not only is it as flexible as a snake on a hot frying pan, it's so lightweight that the recoil is intolerable. I'll probably invest in a laminated stock sometime after the first of the year, maybe a Boyd's and maybe someone else's. I did do a foam fill on a Winchester M70 Youth Ranger that I'd replaced the stock with a Ramline. Made the stock a lot more rigid and the rifle, a .308 Win. BTW extremely accurate for what was technically a cheap rifle that I won in a raffle. Not all that pretty but it works. I got lucky with that one as the changes in bedding improved accuracy with no change in the original load. Naturally, YMMV.
Paul B.
If the action fits correctly at the recoil lug the forend can be as flexible as a garden hose as long as it doesn't touch the barrel. Some of the most accurate rifles I've ever shot were setting in those cheap plastic stocks. The key is to make sure enough stock material is removed from the barrel channel so that there is no contact under normal use. The cheaper stocks might need a bigger gap than a stiffer stock, but the end result is exactly the same. If I squeeze the stocks hard enough I can make them touch the barrels on any of my guns. That includes everything from factory walnut, cheap tupperware to $600 McMillans. They all shoot about the same, because they never touch in "normal" use. Lots of wasted money spent on replacement stocks chasing accuracy.
I've replaced most of my guns stocks with aftermarket, currently have 4 in McMillan Edge stocks. None of them shot a bit better after, nor did I expect them to. A rifle has to prove it is a shooter and a keeper before I spend that kind of money on one. I do it primarily for the weight reduction. Virtually all factory plastic stocks are as heavy or heavier than wood. So are most aftermarket stocks. ( Paul B, put that stock on some scales and weigh it sometime. It will be 30-32 oz, almost exactly the same as walnut.) I took one exactly like it off a 30-06 and replaced it with a 22oz McMillan. I also like the look and feel better of the McMillans, but never expected them or any other aftermarket stock to make a poor shooting rifle shoot great. If the cheap stocks are causing the rifle to shoot poorly then attention needs to be paid to the fit.
In my opinion the plywood stocks are a step backwards for most people. No matter how much you spend on the Axis it is still a budget rifle, the laminated stock will add nothing but weight. The guns value and accuracy will remain unchanged and they are less rugged and weatherproof than the stock that came from the factory. Only slightly better than solid wood. Many of the Boyds stocks don't fit correctly out of the box and need a lot of attention to get them to shoot right.
There isn't anything wrong with your gun. I wouldn't try to fix what isn't broken.
I've replaced most of my guns stocks with aftermarket, currently have 4 in McMillan Edge stocks. None of them shot a bit better after, nor did I expect them to. A rifle has to prove it is a shooter and a keeper before I spend that kind of money on one. I do it primarily for the weight reduction. Virtually all factory plastic stocks are as heavy or heavier than wood. So are most aftermarket stocks. ( Paul B, put that stock on some scales and weigh it sometime. It will be 30-32 oz, almost exactly the same as walnut.) I took one exactly like it off a 30-06 and replaced it with a 22oz McMillan. I also like the look and feel better of the McMillans, but never expected them or any other aftermarket stock to make a poor shooting rifle shoot great. If the cheap stocks are causing the rifle to shoot poorly then attention needs to be paid to the fit.
In my opinion the plywood stocks are a step backwards for most people. No matter how much you spend on the Axis it is still a budget rifle, the laminated stock will add nothing but weight. The guns value and accuracy will remain unchanged and they are less rugged and weatherproof than the stock that came from the factory. Only slightly better than solid wood. Many of the Boyds stocks don't fit correctly out of the box and need a lot of attention to get them to shoot right.
There isn't anything wrong with your gun. I wouldn't try to fix what isn't broken.
4runnerman
New member
I second what jmr40 say's. The only time that flimsy stock will matter is if you are shooting off a bi-pod. Sitting on a rest or free hand will not matter one way or the other. We have 2 people now shooting Savage Axis at our Matches. You may tell them it is a cheap entry level rifle, but when the targets come to the table-Well you better be ready to put your foot in your mouth. Do a little trigger work and you have a Very,Very Accurate rifle I know I have 2 of them now.
The stocks just make them look a little better.. If you are only getting MOA out of them,,,Keep working on your load. They shoot sub MOA very easy. What cal you shooting?.
The stocks just make them look a little better.. If you are only getting MOA out of them,,,Keep working on your load. They shoot sub MOA very easy. What cal you shooting?.
[QUOTE If you are only getting MOA out of them,,,Keep working on your load. They shoot sub MOA very easy. What cal you shooting?./QUOTE]
I'M sure the gun itself will shoot better if it didn't have the original weaver combo scope on it. Wile shooting the crosshairs completely cover my 1in diamond so my hold is probably slightly different from shot to shot. (A good nikon or Leupold and better rings and bases are next)
I'm shooting a 7mm-08
Buying the new stock isn't about trying to improve accuracy but improve look and feel.
I'M sure the gun itself will shoot better if it didn't have the original weaver combo scope on it. Wile shooting the crosshairs completely cover my 1in diamond so my hold is probably slightly different from shot to shot. (A good nikon or Leupold and better rings and bases are next)
I'm shooting a 7mm-08
Buying the new stock isn't about trying to improve accuracy but improve look and feel.
4runnerman
New member
Agreed riverrat. Put a good scope on it and I'm sure you will do mch better.
If the rifle is a shooter in the factory stock now, changing to a better stock, trigger & working up your loads will help. I would practice bedding the factory stock, check out on line vedios on bedding. Nothing will match your rifle perfect without bedding, I would bed the aftermarket stock also. I started with a Remington 700 LTR 308 cal. Very accurate, shot it benchrest only for 3 years, Then started looking to improve even more. Changed the HS precision stoct that comes with the LTR to the full sized 700P HS stock, changed the trigger to a Jewell set at 10 oz. bedded the stock, just loved shooting the rifle. After over 4000 rounds down the barrel, Sent it to Accurate Ordanance to blueprint the action & install a new M24 5R 11.27 twist Rock Creek barrel. You can always improve the rifle, once you found the one for you. Hope I helped
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What strikes me as interesting is that you say you're getting minute of angle from an entry level rifle- and yet you expect more? I'd be quite pleased with that kind of performance from a $300 stick.
Honestly, I don't think you're going to realize any gains as the rifle is probably shooting as good as it's capable of. Putting it into a different stock might improve it on the margins- but you're not going to turn it into a half-minute rifle.
What is of paramount importance, is that the receiver does not move at all, ever....under recoil (period).
It must be in a precision, tight- yet "stress free" fit in the stock, chassis, or whatever it's sitting in. Materials don't matter, heavier reduces felt recoil better. As long as the material- and therefore the fit- to the barreled action doesn't change hot or cold, wet or dry, consistency and therefore accuracy will remain the same.
As others have said, as long as the forend of the stock never touches the barrel, it matters not what it's made of, or whether it's the thickness of a dollar bill, or two inches, from the barrel.
Honestly, I don't think you're going to realize any gains as the rifle is probably shooting as good as it's capable of. Putting it into a different stock might improve it on the margins- but you're not going to turn it into a half-minute rifle.
What is of paramount importance, is that the receiver does not move at all, ever....under recoil (period).
It must be in a precision, tight- yet "stress free" fit in the stock, chassis, or whatever it's sitting in. Materials don't matter, heavier reduces felt recoil better. As long as the material- and therefore the fit- to the barreled action doesn't change hot or cold, wet or dry, consistency and therefore accuracy will remain the same.
As others have said, as long as the forend of the stock never touches the barrel, it matters not what it's made of, or whether it's the thickness of a dollar bill, or two inches, from the barrel.
What strikes me as interesting is that you say you're getting minute of angle from an entry level rifle- and yet you expect more QUOTE]
No i don't expect more. As a matter of fact the rifle has already exceeded my expectations.
I don't like the stock. That's why I want to get another. I am down to 10 of my most accurate target /varmit loads. I'm wanting to load some more but i usually load the whole pound of powder in one sitting. Now I don't want to load 150 rounds just to have the gun not "like" that load after i change the stock. To rephrase my question, is changing the stock on a gun likely to effect what loads the gun shoots the best? (This is of course assuming that I float the barrel and bed the action.)
4runnerman
New member
riverrat-While I don't have 7-08,I do have 2 Savage Axis. I had already worked up a load for both, When I switched stocks the change was very small. If it was me-I would not load that many at once. You are going to be very close to where you are now,but you might want to tweek the load just a smigen with a new stock.
I would get the stock,Load about 20 or so of your load,go fire them and see what happens. Nothing worse or more boring than breaking loads apart.
I have 9 Savages now, All but my 22-250 will shoot sub MOA with ease. The 22-250 will do MOA. That one I have not restocked yet. Not sure if I will. Not even sure why I got that thing. Wasted caliber in my book.
I would get the stock,Load about 20 or so of your load,go fire them and see what happens. Nothing worse or more boring than breaking loads apart.
I have 9 Savages now, All but my 22-250 will shoot sub MOA with ease. The 22-250 will do MOA. That one I have not restocked yet. Not sure if I will. Not even sure why I got that thing. Wasted caliber in my book.
To rephrase my question, is changing the stock on a gun likely to effect what loads the gun shoots the best? (This is of course assuming that I float the barrel and bed the action.)
Good question, and the answer is "maybe", but IMO, it should not provided the receiver is correctly fitted now- and after- the stock change.
To explain it another way...
The accuracy "node" we all find by working up handloads has to do with barrel harmonics. Dan Newberry explains this on his website, here is part of it:
Engineer Chris Long's model of barrel
behavior suggests (simply put, and in part)
that the initial shock wave, generated by the powder
charge's ignition, travels at the speed of sound in
steel (about 18.000 fps) from the chamber to the muzzle, then back, in a repeated pattern. When this wave is present at the muzzle, there is
naturally much turbulence and obturation of the
"roundness" of the bore at the muzzle. However, when
this main shock wave has reverberated back to the
chamber end, the muzzle is relatively stable. This
window of opportunity, according to Chris, is the best
time for the bullet to exit the muzzle. The barrel is
basically straight, and relatively calm.
So...
Once you've found the load where the bullet is exiting the bore at this point in time, it shouldn't change. However, the receiver's fit in the stock, the amount of torque on the action screws, are variables that can also affect consistency before and after a stock change. If you don't have a in/lb torque screwdriver, pay attention/get a good feel for how tight you have them when removing the action for the stock change.
If you go with a laminate like Boyd's, I would shoot it first "as-is" right out of the box. If your consistency/accuracy is not what it was before, I would recommend you epoxy bed the receiver ( do a search for threads on this here if you don't have experience with it) as it's likely you won't get the precision fit required for the receiver without it. JMO, YMMV...
When one finally realizes they're the biggest variable in rifle accuracy, they'll be content shooting 1 MOA groups holding the rifle atop something atop a bench while sitting next to it. Us humans don't hold firearms very repeatably in position to shoot them. Which is why benchresters get those tiny groups with their rifles shot untouched by the shooter except for their fore finger gently pressing on a 2 ounce trigger, then the rifle recoils back freely exactly the same from shot to shot without human intervention.
I don't think changing the stock will change the barreled action's accuracy as long as it's epoxy bedded and the barrel totally free floated.
I don't think changing the stock will change the barreled action's accuracy as long as it's epoxy bedded and the barrel totally free floated.
4runnerman
New member
AS Bart says, Humans are the biggest glitch in Accuracy, but to diminish that glitch , you still want the most accurate load that your rifle can shoot. Load work up is to find that load. After you find it, then it is up to you to shoot more accurate. I do not hunt any more, but any rifle I have- If it is not MOA or better- It is gone. Per say- My 22-250, MOA at best, It will be the first rifle I get rid of.
I think Chris Long's claim in the quote above is one of the easiest disproved theories on rifle accuracy. Especially because he doesn't stipulate which direction the muzzle axis is swinging when it's straight. If it's on the downswing, accuracy gets less.
He obviously is ignorant that front sight barrel bands clamped tightly on barrel muzzles squeezing down the bore and groove diameters does not change their accuracy at all.
Nobody, as far as I know, has timed the shock pulse going back and forth in the barreled action 4 or 5 times at 16,000 fps while the bullet's going through it to see where it is upon bullet exit. If that shock pulse starts anywhere besides the back end of the receiver, there will be two of them; each in different places. The barreled action is one piece of metal as far as shock waves matter. Shock waves start in all directions from their source; in firearms, they start in the chamber area. So there's two of them going back and forth in a 30" long barreled action while the bullet goes through it. Where are they when the bullet exits?
Some match grade barrels do not loose accuracy as their bore and groove diameters at the muzzle enlarge from cleaning rod wear. And different loads and bullet weights in different barrel lengths have different barrel times and they're equally accurate so some have to exit when a shock wave is at different places; sometimes at the muzzle.
He obviously is ignorant that front sight barrel bands clamped tightly on barrel muzzles squeezing down the bore and groove diameters does not change their accuracy at all.
Nobody, as far as I know, has timed the shock pulse going back and forth in the barreled action 4 or 5 times at 16,000 fps while the bullet's going through it to see where it is upon bullet exit. If that shock pulse starts anywhere besides the back end of the receiver, there will be two of them; each in different places. The barreled action is one piece of metal as far as shock waves matter. Shock waves start in all directions from their source; in firearms, they start in the chamber area. So there's two of them going back and forth in a 30" long barreled action while the bullet goes through it. Where are they when the bullet exits?
Some match grade barrels do not loose accuracy as their bore and groove diameters at the muzzle enlarge from cleaning rod wear. And different loads and bullet weights in different barrel lengths have different barrel times and they're equally accurate so some have to exit when a shock wave is at different places; sometimes at the muzzle.
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