Accidental discharges

B

brianidaho

New member
Don't anybody get cute with the subject-I just know you want to :) I'm a relative newbe to handgunning, and have recently applied for my CCW. I've seen the various debates promoting DAO and Glock-type safety systems vs cocked and locked single actions, or cocked and locked double/singles. I like the idea of a positive, mechanical safety, rather than just counting on a long DA pull as your only safety (other than the one between your ears). Face it, we all do stupid things from time to time, it seems like it would be too easy to screw up just once and slip your finger onto the trigger while holstering, etc. Mostly speculation on my part, I've spent far more time with rifles than handguns, though I'm working hard to catch up. Currently planning on carring my Witness Compact Poly condition 1-is this a bad idea?

Does anyone have any real world accidental discharge/negligent discharge incidents that they would relate, and what type of handgun did they occur with.
Thanks.
Bri

[This message has been edited by brianidaho (edited September 18, 2000).]
 
I have seen ND's or potential ND's with about every make, model and style of firearm. It's all about the safety between your ears. Most common occurrence is at the range when someone puts a cocked and unlocked weapon back in the holster or on the table when a cease fire is called. You tend to point it out to them in the same manner you would tell them they're standing on a rattlesnake... slowly and carefully.

For me the greater concern is not so much about doing stupid things (not that I'm immune to stupidity), but about doing the wrong thing under extremely stressful conditions (any self defense situation). You have to be honest with yourself and realize what your limitations are under stress and make your firearms selection accordingly. No one can make that determination for you.

I mostly carry DA/SA autos w/out safety when I'm awake. I rely on a DAO Beretta for "sleepy time." I've come to know what I'm like when I go from a very deep sleep to a very powerful adrenaline rush. I feel that I and my family are better served by the DAO in those situations

Just my opinion. Good luck in your choice.
 
There is an important distinction to make here before we all go posting our tales of accidental/negligent discharge - and that is the difference between an AD - "accidental discharge" and an ND - "negligent discharge."

AD - no finger on trigger, gun discharged when dropped, suffered a mechanical failure, etc.

ND - finger on trigger, gun went off. If the gun went off and your finger was on the trigger, it is a negligent discharge.

I did have one AD with a cheap 9mm Norinco pistol. I was shooting at the range when I decided to test the "decock" device. The device failed to block the pin and fired the round when the hammer fell. I happy to report that gun was pointed downrange and no injuries resulted. The gun was sold shortly thereafter to a gunsmith who knew how to correct the problem. To date, though, I am happy to report no NDs.
 
Brianidaho: "Face it, we all do stupid things from time to time, it seems like it would be too easy to screw up just once and slip your finger onto the trigger while holstering, etc." Thinking like this could lead to - we could screw up just once and forget/neglect to take the safety off of a single action or double action semi-auto when we needed it most!
Sure, it could happen, but training and familiarization overcomes things like this. I prefer 1911's but wouldn't overlook a Glock because it is lacking a manual safety. It's all in the training of your drawstroke and return to holster.
I've seen too many guys who cockily shove their handguns back into their holsters, and one of these days they'll be the ones who get the ND! One of the best sayings I've heard (I can't give credit because I have no idea how long this one's been around) is, "I've never heard of anyone winning a gunfight with a speed re-holster!"
By the way, I'd previously never seen a AD or ND until this year.
I witnessed a Glock shooter get on the trigger too fast, probably taking up slack too soon, and discharged an early shot that missed his target entirely downrange (no problem, no one hurt) and also the same thing with a shotgun coming up from African carry.
Both of these came about because of attempting too much speed. Practice smoothness, and sure motions, and the speed will come.
EricO
Shoot safely!
 
had a ND of the sort that EricO describes, the type of situation where I was taking up too much slack after my first shot. was shooting someone else's USP .40 and scared the heck (not quite the h*ll) out of myself when the weapon discharged. thank god I was still pointing it downrange, but I remember thinking, "Man, I thought I had total control over when I wanted to shoot." very sobering experience; I really thought this was the sort of thing that would only happen to someone else.
 
My name is Ledbetter. This is my story.

I was at the range, firing my Ruger MkII .22 caliber pistol. I pulled back and released the bolt to chamber a round. I observed that the round did not fully seat, nor did the bolt fully close. Here comes the good part.

With the pistol pointed downrange, but pointed way too high, I pressed on the rear of the bolt with my thumb. BANG went the pistol, even though my finger was nowhere near the trigger. The bolt flew back, right into my thumb. Downrange went the bullet; way downrange.

Don't let this happen to you with your rimfire pistol.

Be safe, shoot happy,

Ledbetter
 
I was shooting my Browning Camper .22 pistol. I aimed at my target and pulled the trigger. I kept applying more and more pressure until I realized that...duh...my safety was on. I clicked off the safety and the gun fired. My finger was nowhere near the trigger.

Always point your barrel in a safe direction.
 
My polycoated black milspec CZ-75 in .40S&W can be on half-cock and also have the ambi-safety on too.
It makes it easier for a first D/A shot and may be a "belt and braces" approach, the safety comes off easily too with just a flick of the thumb.(Possibly an obstruction could come between the hammer and firing pin and stop the action when needed? But that applies to cocked and locked as well...so perhaps straight D/A is the best option after all?

But I do admit as the CZ-75 is all steel it is a bit heavy for carrying all day(I don't)... I suppose a Glock (maybe :() wins there!

------------------
If we shooting sportspersons don't hang together... we will all hang separately !
Never knock another's different shooting interest or discipline...REMEMBER we are all but leaves on the same tree of freedom.
 
Something happened several years ago that shaped my attitude regarding the dreaded AD/ND. My father hired an off-duty police officer as a guard on a construction site where material was being stolen almost nightly. Naturally, the fellow came dressed in casual clothes. He rarely wore a holster and when he made his rounds he just stuffed his pistol down the front of his pants, Mexican style.
I don't know what type of pistol he was carrying that night, but when he stuffed it in his waist line, in the front, BANG!! I'll leave it to your imagination what he shot off, but think of he worst thing and you'll be right.
SHUDDER!!!

Will
 
During a rifle course, I had a trigger job done. Things seemed fine, and the newly 24-oz trigger was delightfully sensitive. Many rounds fired, some a bit sooner than expected (mea culpa) from the newly-sensitive trigger.

Next day while dry-firing before the morning's target exercises, the firing pin started dropping as I closed the bolt (if safety was off) or when the safety was released. A recently-adjusted screw had come loose; had it loosened just an hour or two later, I would have had a true AD from mechanical failure.
 
Brian, NDs can occur with any pistol. You can be safe or unsafe with any style of action. The important thing is knowledge and the discipline to use that knowledge.

At LFI-1 and 2, Ayoob said that most of the NDs he's heard of at various shooting academies have been with M1911s and most have been going into or out of a holster. But that doesn't mean you can't have an ND with other types of actions, including DA semi-auto, as occurred at Front Sight:
http://www.frontsight.com/safety.htm

With any gun carried cocked-and-locked, you MUST apply the safety prior to holstering. If you fail to do so, then when you holster, if you leave your finger on the trigger you will have an ND. A holster stap could catch the trigger. If you do apply the safety, then the gun should not go off if you holster with your finger on the trigger.

Many DA semi-autos, like the Sig, don't have a manual safety. As shown in the Front Sight incident, if you holster a DA semi-auto with your finger on the trigger, you may have an ND. The longer, harder pull of the DA gives you some added protection -- you might realize before you complete the holstering that your finger is on the trigger. With a DA semi-auto, you must decock before you reholster, otherwise you have essentially an SA gun off-safe.

Some DA semi-autos have safeties, e.g., most S&W and Berettas. With these guns, decocking applies a manual safety. If you fail to decock, of course, you then have the equivalent of an SA off-safe. If you do decock and apply the safety, then the gun should not go off if you holster with your finger on the trigger. Downside to the S&W safety is that it works in the wrong direction, IMHO, and is harder to operate than an M1911 safety.

A Glock with the standard trigger is essentially an SA gun off-safe, because the trigger has a relatively light pull and short travel. Holstering this gun with your finger on the trigger will produce an ND.

I would argue that most DAO guns are a touch safer than Glocks in this regard, simply because they have triggers with longer travel. That gives you just a wee bit more of a chance of recognizing that you are holstering with your finger on the trigger.

Personally, I've carried Glocks, Kahrs, M1911s, S&W revolvers. I also have a Sig, though I don't carry that (for other reasons...). I feel equally safe with all of them.

But you MUST get training in drawing and holstering to do it safely. I strongly recommend that you go to a reputable shooting school (e.g., LFI, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Farnam, etc.) if you haven't already. NRA Basic Pistol just doesn't cover the many issues involved in CCW.

M1911
 
M1911 is entirely true on his excellent breakdown of all the models - single action, traditional double action, Glock safe action, and DAO.
I have one point that I'd like to make here. If you simply place and remove your finger from the trigger guard when it's appropriate, then regardless of whether you put on safe or decocked, you won't have that ND when reholstering! Let's not place emphasis upon the type of action the handgun has, let's place the emphasis on the training!
M1911's point of the holster strap possibly catching the trigger upon reholstering is a good one - I've seen many people reholster with these much too fast and hurried, and in the improper manner. Ayoob covers this in one of his books.
EricO
 
I shot my friend's Amana Air Conditioner last year with my USP 40 Compact right after I got it. I sold it afterwards fearing that my dishwasher would be next.

Last week he said that it didn't work anymore and not thinking I asked why. He said "hmmm, maybe because there's a bullet in it".

Anyway, stupid me let my friend rack the slide with the mag in and forgot to clear out the chamber. We were side by side looking at the sights, I pulled the trigger. POP! I thought he would have gone deaf but he didn't. The Amana took one in the temperature control switch though. They wouldn't warranty it because it was shot with a .40 Caliber, they haven't done enough tests to see if that particular model could stand up to the abuse.

No really, It was the single most dumbass thing I ever did and I learned a valueable lesson, always doublecheck and triplecheck and etc...... BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!

------------------
"Get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock" - Tommy Lee Jones

"Chi Chi.... Chi Chi, Get The Yayo" - Tony Montana
 
I've been a little leary of AD with my DA/SA P99... I'm mainly worried about an AD catching the trigger on a piece of clothing or strap or something while holstering the gun. Anybody know if holding down the de-ocker while holstering could prevent this? Guess it'll be easy enough to check next time I'm at the range... actually, I don't know if I want to try that... if I'm holding down the de-cocker and it does fire (even if it's pointing safely down range) that wouldn't feel too good on the 'ol finger...
-Tyler
 
Ayoob tells of a well trained shooter who was so upset at failing to get all rounds fired during a timed exercise that he reholstered with finger in the trigger and BOOM.

Emotions can override training even with the best intentions. Got to be careful.
 
OK here's the Dumbest thing I've ever done.

After going to the Range AT WORK. I'm in the range locker room finishing cleaning my duty weapon. I reassemble the cleaned weapon and perform a function check. Insert a loaded mag and rack a round in the chamber, drop the mag to top off and get called over to settle a football arguement. after the arguement I go back to my bench and perform ANOTHER function check without checking the chamber (only an idiot would leave one up the pipe, right?)BANG! I KIA'd our Dept FIREARMS SAFETY poster. I humbly accept my runners up trophy for a darwin award.
 
Now my understanding is that the trick is to get the gun out of the holster quickly and up to the aiming point quickly, so if you grab the gun wrong and grab the trigger BOOM. This is mitigated by having a trigger guard.

Is there however any situation that would require quickly putting your pistol away in your holster. None come to my mind that would relate to civilian use. I have a SIG and I have trained myself not to put my finger on the trigger until my sights come onto target.
 
Just to remind everyone - I had an ND while dry-firing with my Glock and leaving the magazine withing arms reach. Very scary, expesially in an apartment. No one was hurt luckily.
AD's are mechanical - you can only prepare so much for that.
ND's on the other hand, are usually a matter of complacency and not thinking. NEVER "zone out" or daydream while handling a firearm. ALWAYS remain sharp and aware. I know this sounds silly, and maybe I have ADD or something, but when I had my ND, I was dry-firing and thinking about other things. BOOM.
The lesson I learned the hard way is this - whenever I have a firearm in my hands, my attention is focused on exclusively what I am doing until it leaves my hands and goes somewhere in a safe condition.
 
Greetings,

Mr. Blonde, Gonzo and Maxinquaye have inspired me to confess that I once shot my TV while dry firing in the living room.

I had been dry firing, put the gun away, and then decided to recommence practice. You can fill in the blanks. I keep all my guns loaded. DOH!

Tremendous BANG, one more shake of the head from my ever-forgiving wife, $700 at Circuit City and a trip to the landfill later, my lesson has been learned. We still have the spent casing as a reminder.

Range report: .45 ACP +P Glaser Safety Slug (Blue) impacted Sony TV from ten feet. COM hit. TV went dark after impressive sparking. DRT. Very little smoke after disconnection from AC wall plug. Bullet did not exit TV case, appeared to fragment upon initial impact with picture tube. Upon removal from living room, TV emitted sounds suggesting that it was full of tiny pieces of glass.

Don't try this at home,

Ledbetter
 
I've told it before....

When I was young, dumb and full of ....

I was relatively new to 1911s, and didn't trust the mechanical saftey.

Genius me came up with the idea of keeping the hammer down on a live round for storage, then thumb the hammer back at night and engage the safety since spped would be of the essence if I needed it in the house (actually, DAD'S house...).

Well, even though this involved manual dexterity seconds after the alarm clock went off, I was still able to do it for several weeks, if not months, before I got complacent with the operation and started doing it one handed, coming off the grip safety and riding the hammer down with my thumb as the pistol slightly pivoted in my hand.

Well, the LAST time I did it, BOOM into the wall next to my bed. As I was pointing it almost straight up, I cut a long hole in my wall, an impressive exit wound in the hallway, and a ding in the hall cieling where the round merely bounced off.

While fixing the damage, I saw that the silvertip gouged about a 10" trench in a wall stud, about 1/4 inch deep.

The interesting thing was the intense pain as my thumb was introduced to the slide at about 100mph.

I figured out later that, in my "safety founded" mistrust of the mechanical safety, I intentionally defeated all 3 safety features, resulting in an SD, stupid discharge.
 
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