I'm wondering how common it was to have AD or ND with revolvers and 1911's vs todays glock / walther / ? striker fired trigger safety style pistols. Lots of people seem convinced that every person with a glock (just a convenient example, I own and like mine_ is going to shoot a hole in the ceiling at some point. Was this a big a concern in years past. I'm asking as a younger shooter, just into my 30's, that is just curious. I have no dog in the fight either way.
Accidental discharges Modern vs. historic
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Scharfschuetzer
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I've seen or been around several ADs in my two careers.
Law enforcent:
S&W Model 36 in the squad room bathroom. Operator error
S&W Model 28 in the squad room. Operator error
870 Remington 12 Gauge shotgun at the equipment window. Operator error
Military:
1911A1 in the team room while deployed operationally. Operator error
Thankfully I was only witness or only adjacent to the events! No one injured, but two of the ADs came within inches of striking bystanders.
Law enforcent:
S&W Model 36 in the squad room bathroom. Operator error
S&W Model 28 in the squad room. Operator error
870 Remington 12 Gauge shotgun at the equipment window. Operator error
Military:
1911A1 in the team room while deployed operationally. Operator error
Thankfully I was only witness or only adjacent to the events! No one injured, but two of the ADs came within inches of striking bystanders.
I have had three, one with a Colt revolver, one with a Walther PP, and one with a Winchester Model 71. All operator error, and all many years ago, but because I habitually keep guns pointed away from people, no harm done.
I may be saying this just to save face, but IMHO, anyone who shoots a lot and is around guns enough either has had, or will eventually have, a negligent discharge. Of course most won't admit it.
As to modern guns and safety devices, I think that is irrelevant. In the above, each ND involved actually pulling the trigger, which negates most modern safety devices.
Jim
I may be saying this just to save face, but IMHO, anyone who shoots a lot and is around guns enough either has had, or will eventually have, a negligent discharge. Of course most won't admit it.
As to modern guns and safety devices, I think that is irrelevant. In the above, each ND involved actually pulling the trigger, which negates most modern safety devices.
Jim
I don't agree that an accident is inevitable but that's not saying I've never had one. Things were no different in the past.
Before the 1960s, roughly, it was considered unsafe to carry a .45 automatic with a chambered round, yet at the same time, it was also considered an acceptable practice to carry a chambered rounded with the hammer down. And "cocked and locked" was already a method of carry that the Texas Rangers were using. I'm referring mostly to writers who apparently preferred revolvers to automatics and thought automatics were unsafe. But also remember that before 1960, it was pretty much the Colt .45 auto that they were referring to, although Lugers were not that uncommon and war trophy P38s were becoming more common also, along with all sorts of pocket pistols, all of which seemed to be scorned by gunwriters. I'd say things only started changing because of the introduction of the S&W Model 39. New P38s were available by then also but I don't know how widely available they were. Just because they were in a catalog didn't mean you could actually find one in a store, same as now.
The other thing, which probably came later, was Jeff Cooper's promotion of the .45 automatic as the only handgun to have.
Accidents with firearms are hardly limited to handguns and it is likely that there are more accidents with long guns when hunting than with handguns.
There was also a Western-style fast draw craze in the late 1950s (that's how Jeff Cooper got started) that involved either blanks, wax bullets or regular live ammo. There were lots of accidents using live ammo.
Before the 1960s, roughly, it was considered unsafe to carry a .45 automatic with a chambered round, yet at the same time, it was also considered an acceptable practice to carry a chambered rounded with the hammer down. And "cocked and locked" was already a method of carry that the Texas Rangers were using. I'm referring mostly to writers who apparently preferred revolvers to automatics and thought automatics were unsafe. But also remember that before 1960, it was pretty much the Colt .45 auto that they were referring to, although Lugers were not that uncommon and war trophy P38s were becoming more common also, along with all sorts of pocket pistols, all of which seemed to be scorned by gunwriters. I'd say things only started changing because of the introduction of the S&W Model 39. New P38s were available by then also but I don't know how widely available they were. Just because they were in a catalog didn't mean you could actually find one in a store, same as now.
The other thing, which probably came later, was Jeff Cooper's promotion of the .45 automatic as the only handgun to have.
Accidents with firearms are hardly limited to handguns and it is likely that there are more accidents with long guns when hunting than with handguns.
There was also a Western-style fast draw craze in the late 1950s (that's how Jeff Cooper got started) that involved either blanks, wax bullets or regular live ammo. There were lots of accidents using live ammo.
Scharfschuetzer
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Skadoosh,
While a bit off topic, I must respond to your post as I find it pretty insulting.
AD has been used for years and is part of numerous POIs (lesson plans) used in law enforcement, hunter safety and the military. I agree that it might be ammended and as a state hunter safety instructor, former police firearms instructor, and as a military marksmanship and SOTIC instructor I often use ND instead of the POI's use of AD. That said, I use AD here as that was not only the OP's terminology, but because it is an accepted term understood by the vast majority of shooters.
My grasp of English is pretty well founded and I just despise being told how to talk or type when using the language.
While a bit off topic, I must respond to your post as I find it pretty insulting.
AD has been used for years and is part of numerous POIs (lesson plans) used in law enforcement, hunter safety and the military. I agree that it might be ammended and as a state hunter safety instructor, former police firearms instructor, and as a military marksmanship and SOTIC instructor I often use ND instead of the POI's use of AD. That said, I use AD here as that was not only the OP's terminology, but because it is an accepted term understood by the vast majority of shooters.
My grasp of English is pretty well founded and I just despise being told how to talk or type when using the language.
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I do not accept it. Nor should you. We should, especially here in a firearms forum, use correct terminology during our discussions.
Those POI's are wrong. Pure and simple. Continuing to perpetuate the incorrect use of "accidental discharge" is stupid and self-defeating. As members of this particular forum we should make it a point to get the phraseology correct. Experts, especially those who are so by virtue of being an instructor, should strive to educate others who don't know any better.
There is a BIG difference between the two and they should not be paired together.
I totally disagree. Negligent discharges are failures by the shooter to observe one or several of the rules of safety. An AD is a mechanical failure of the weapon itself which discharges outside of it's functional design parameters caused by part/s breakage, build of dirt or some other mechanical issue.
If you can not recognize that the two are completely different, I suggest you crack open a dictionary.
I totally disagree. Negligent discharges are failures by the shooter to observe one or several of the rules of safety. An AD is a mechanical failure of the weapon itself which discharges outside of it's functional design parameters caused by part/s breakage, build of dirt or some other mechanical issue.
If you can not recognize that the two are completely different, I suggest you crack open a dictionary.
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Well, I never heard the term "negligent discharge" until the last few years; it was always "accidental discharge".
I think the former term was coined by lawyers like Skadoosh because the difference is a major factor in a lawsuit. If something is an accident, someone may be responsible; if something is negligence, then someone IS responsible and can be made to pay huge damages, of which the lawyers will take 99%.
Jim
I think the former term was coined by lawyers like Skadoosh because the difference is a major factor in a lawsuit. If something is an accident, someone may be responsible; if something is negligence, then someone IS responsible and can be made to pay huge damages, of which the lawyers will take 99%.
Jim
Skadoosh,
I am not a moron. I can recognize the differences. I disagree with your terminology. Call it a mechanical discharge if you want. If I accidentally pull the trigger then I accidentally discharged the firearm. Now it may have been my own fault, but it was an accident. You really are adding nothing to this thread.
I am not a moron. I can recognize the differences. I disagree with your terminology. Call it a mechanical discharge if you want. If I accidentally pull the trigger then I accidentally discharged the firearm. Now it may have been my own fault, but it was an accident. You really are adding nothing to this thread.
I assure you I am not a lawyer.
I just know that I wish I could blame my own ND on my weapon. But I can not. Although I did not intend on pulling the trigger, my finger did in fact pull the trigger. I was completely at fault for doing so. I failed to take proper care...the very definition of negligent. My weapon operated as advertised. While I ignored #2 and #3, thankfully I had followed rule #1 and my weapon was pointed in a safe direction.
I assure you, there is a big difference between an AD and a ND. Everyone here should acknowledge it...and move on. This thread has nothing to offer if the participants refuse to acknowledge the difference.
I just know that I wish I could blame my own ND on my weapon. But I can not. Although I did not intend on pulling the trigger, my finger did in fact pull the trigger. I was completely at fault for doing so. I failed to take proper care...the very definition of negligent. My weapon operated as advertised. While I ignored #2 and #3, thankfully I had followed rule #1 and my weapon was pointed in a safe direction.
I assure you, there is a big difference between an AD and a ND. Everyone here should acknowledge it...and move on. This thread has nothing to offer if the participants refuse to acknowledge the difference.
I think operational differences in handguns over the years have played a role in it. I carried a Colt style cap & ball revolver a quite a bit, as a kid, and you soon learn leave your hammer resting on an uncapped nipple. Same for Colt cartridge SA's and clones; hammer down on an empty chamber. Elmer Keith wrote at length about some of the AD's he'd seen and no, not all of them were ND's. In one case a fella was saddling a horse when a stirrup slipped off the pommel, dropped and hit the hammer of his SA, discharging it down through his leg.
In 30+ years of LE, I've seen AD's, ND's and at least a couple of killings that someone tried to cover with a big AD story. Personally I think the emphasis on trigger finger discipline, over the last couple of decades, has done more to reduce unintentional discharges than any other single factor.
Let's keep the acrimony to a minimum here folks. This ain't my beat but I'm not going to sit back and watch it turn into melee, either.
In 30+ years of LE, I've seen AD's, ND's and at least a couple of killings that someone tried to cover with a big AD story. Personally I think the emphasis on trigger finger discipline, over the last couple of decades, has done more to reduce unintentional discharges than any other single factor.
Let's keep the acrimony to a minimum here folks. This ain't my beat but I'm not going to sit back and watch it turn into melee, either.
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Really? Does your trigger finger operate independently from your brain? Did your finger accidentally slip onto the trigger and squeeze when you did not intend for the weapon to fire?
If you answered no to both these questions, then it was no accident. You have failed to follow a basic firearms safety rule.
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