Accident with Musgrave Rifle

Doug Bowser

New member
The Musgrave rifles are made in S. Africa. This one was a single shot in .25-06. It was fired with a .308 Winchester cartridge. The results were devistating. I have a friend in St. Louis who works for Browning. The A bolt Browning rifles in .25-06 do not blow like this, when fired with a .308 Winchester ctg. He says the bolt and extractor are usually damaged. They replace the bolt and check the headspace on the A Bolt and the rifles are usually good to go. The shooter was reportedly killed in this accident.

Doug
 

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I know of two cases where a .308 got shot in a .270 Winchester without a blowup like that, one was a Remington 700. Wow that was a Ka Boom!
 
The wrong ammo, the firearms companies do everything they can, but still cannot make an idiot proof gun. Go Figure ?
 
seen a couple guys at the public range that have put the wrong cartridges in the gun... but trying to stuff a realitively high pressure 30 caliber bullet down a 25 caliber bore would have to be close to a worst case

I reload & shoot over 50 different cartridges ( often resized from other cases )... I'm pretty anal in watching for stuff like that... seeing it happen a couple times is part of why I now have my own range

the broken pieces that are in that pic, had to result in the minimum of some injury
 
What's this got to do with Remington?

That's my signature. Not sure why what I typed out didn't post along with it.. :confused:

I wanted my post to say I'm not an expert at all on this matter, but it seems to me that because the .308 has less powder than a .25-06 it seems unlikely that it would be such a catastrophic loss. Also that either way, it's a great reminder we have to be careful what we are doing with firearms.. the less of these types of stories we produce, the better off we'll be!
 
30 caliber bullet down a 25 caliber bore

That's a great point.. the bore would have been completely blocked and the pressure wouldn't escape down the barrel like intended. Yep, guess I could see why it was so bad!
 
Forgive me, but...

Don't the .25-06, it's parent the .30-06, and the .308 all headspace on the shoulder?

How can a .308 seat so that the firing pin will hit the primer in the longer '06' chamber?

Just wondering...
 
This one was a single shot in .25-06. It was fired with a .308 Winchester cartridge.

The wrong ammo, the firearms companies do everything they can, but still cannot make an idiot proof gun. Go Figure ?

Nothing can be made idiot proof permanently: The idiots are relentless.
 
.308 bullet would seat on the 25-06 case shoulder in the chamber

Thanks,

I do see your point, but looking at the dimensions, the neck OD of the .25-06 is .290...With a spitzer in a .308 Win, I'd say that would allow a good portion of the bullet into the neck of a .25-06 chamber before interference from the .308 bullet stopped forward progress...

Just trying to wrap my head around this...
 
rgive me, but...

Don't the .25-06, it's parent the .30-06, and the .308 all headspace on the shoulder?

How can a .308 seat so that the firing pin will hit the primer in the longer '06' chamber?

Just wondering...


30/06, 270 25/06 all share the .357 datum, the 308 W uses a .400 datum, so that part is different along with the length of the chamber from the head of the case to the shoulder, the 308 W is .388 shorter than the 30/06 family of chambers. To attempt to make it more clear when head spacing a 308 W in a 30/06 chamber, the 308W is larger in diameter than the 30/06 at the shoulder by .011 thousands meaning the 308 W has less case tapper. 308 W cases have been fired in 30/06 chambers with .000 head space because the case lodges in the chamber meaning to chamber a 308 W in a 30/06 chamber the case shoulder of the 308 W must be sized when chambered.

As to what rifle survives a catastrophic failure, again, a man volunteered to zero a rifle for his friend, he went to the range, loaded ammo, pulled the trigger and decided to sue everyone because it was their fault. He took the rifle to a smith in North Texas, the smith is one of the few that qualify as “A man of few words” After the rifle bolt was removed, case removed the Smith asked the shooter where he purchased the ammo, and like a good participant he went to his vehicle, recovered the receipt and the ammo and proudly displayed it to the smith, no problem there , you purchased 308 W ammo and someone handed you 308 W ammo, then the smith asked the shooter if the rifle belonged to him and of course the answer was ‘NO!” The Smith then ask him if he knew what chamber was in the rifle, and the shooter said 308 W, then the Smith ask him to read the writing on the side of the barrel and tell him what it says, 25/06 was the reply. and there were no more “ I am going to sue”

No easy to make something fool proof, fools do not read.

Even the finest of rifles are not required to survive the firing of a 308 W in a 25/06 chamber, the case when removed did not have a neck and only the slightest hint of a shoulder, so forget the problem with the firing pin reaching the primer, the smith did say cheap bullet saved the rifle and the shooter from harm, others speculated as to how long the bullet was when it exited the rifle, I believe the jacket was stripped from the bullet first and the lead exited in small pieces then, the jacket left, it was suggested the shooter return to the range and walk his lane for bullet fragments, (shooter retrieved a receipt and what was left of a box of 20 rounds_) and it made the smiths job easier when determining the cause of the failure because the head of the case was hammered so hard there just was not enough information left in the form of information to tell how the case head was stamped.

And time is a factor, and we do not know how much the pressure was lowered caused by blow by gas and case expansion when the case formed to the chamber.

A good bullet would have would have been an obstruction.

F. Guffey
 
In simplest terms, either the mauser claw extractor held the case head against the bolt face allowing firing, or since the .308 case is slighly wider at the shoulder that the .25-06 case is at the same distance from the bolt face, it could have "headspaced" there, and fired.

No rifle can be expected to survive undamaged from such an accident, however, what is shown in the pics is catastrophic reciever failure, something that seldom happens, and really should not happen even when firing a .308 in a .25-06.

Broken parts, bolt frozen in the reciever from setback, vented gas shattering the stock, all these can be expected, but for the reciever to shatter like that indicates that it was not heat treated the way it should have been.

I'm sure that that rifle would have served well for a lifetime of ordinary shooting, but apparently didn't have the safety margin beyond normal that many other rifles have.
 
If it is a controlled feed rifle, the extracter would grab the rim and hold it against the bolt face as it were chambered.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musgrave_rifle
Quote:
The Musgrave RSA Target Rifle

The single shot Musgrave RSA action (sometimes marked "Lyttleton RSA") that serves as the platform for these rifles are based on Mauser's design, with controlled feed(claw) extractor.

I really do appreciate the info...

That makes sense then...
 
In simplest terms, either the mauser claw extractor held the case head against the bolt face allowing firing, or since the .308 case is slighly wider at the shoulder that the .25-06 case is at the same distance from the bolt face, it could have "headspaced" there, and fired.

No rifle can be expected to survive undamaged from such an accident, however, what is shown in the pics is catastrophic reciever failure, something that seldom happens, and really should not happen even when firing a .308 in a .25-06.

It never occurred to me that any firearm would be able to withstand that kind of 'mishap'...

My only question was the mechanics behind a firing pin impacting a primer on a shell that should have fallen into the chamber out of reach of the bolt face IMNSHO...
 
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