Acceptable size grouping

There are very many variables, but I wouldn't be happy with anything over 1.5" for a hunting rifle

"Acceptable " depends a lot on your goal.
 
As stated, too many variables to make a patent statement.
If it were my scary accurate 25/06 110 FP, I'd be disappointed with a .75" group. If more like the old beater 243 that lives in my tractor cab, I'd be fine with 1.5-2".
 
What is a good size grouping for a marksman on a savage .243 bolt action hunting rifle at 150 yards?
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To compare group sizes, the default standard distance is 100 yards, not 150. You also confuse the issued by saying "...for a marksman...", from which I infer that you want to know how good a person can shot a savage .243, not how accurate (testing off the bench), the gun itself can expected to be. In that case, if a person were shooting off-hand, as in deer hunting, the size of the group would be dependent upon how skilled the actual shooter was. You are going to have to be more specific with your question.
 
A modern bolt action hunting rifle with decent optics and good ammo should be able to shoot 1 MOA for 3 shots. That means 3 shots in 1" center to center at 100 yards. At 150 yards 1.5", 2" at 200 yards, 3" at 300 yards etc. That is the rifle, not all shooters can do that.

In my experience most will do a little better than that and some won't do quite as well. Most manufacturers don't consider it a problem unless the individual rifle is more than 1.5 MOA. I've seen so many that would shoot MOA or better that I'd no longer keep a rifle that wouldn't shoot MOA right out of the box. I don't expect 1/2 MOA every time, but it is pretty rare for any of my current bolt guns to shoot over .75 MOA and .5 is fairly common.

Target rifles are generally held to a higher standard and expected to not only be more accurate, but to maintain the accuracy for more shots, usually 5 instead of 3.

Levers, pumps and most semi-autos are usually not quite as accurate and 1.5-2 MOA are considered normal. Although there are exceptions, many AR's will come close to bolt rifle accuracy and I've seen individual pump and lever actions do surprisingly well.
 
Like most above I feel a 1 MOA rifle is more than sufficient for a hunting rifle. That does not stop me from trying to improve my loads but when getting ready for the hunt I go through my logs and look for a load that provided the best accuracy with the best velocity. A few years back I purchased a Vanguard S2 in 243 and to my amazement it shoots Barnes 80 grain TTSX's half MOA and pretty much everything else I've tried in it at or below MOA. After years of shooting magnums I find the 243 a true fun and enjoyable rifle to shoot.
 
The 243 is an excellent super accurate cartridge

The Savage is an accurate off the shelf rifle.

Your group size is going to be limited by the shooter, not the gun and ammo.

Little things cause the group to expand, pretty much all shooter related.

An example: I built my wife an excellent 243 on a Winchester action. When she first started shooting it, she had no problem. Then it got to where she couldn't shoot it worth a darn. I figured it was just the lack of practice. I took her to the range and oppps, I forgot her ammo so she decides to shoot my 270 Model 70.

She sees this little spirit level on the stock and ask "what's the bubble for" I told her to keep from canting the rifle. She started shooting using the spirit level and had no problems.

We got home she made me order one for her rifle. Fixed the problem, she was canting the rifle and didn't know it.

That is just one problem that can pop up.

Re-visit your fundamentals, concentrating on Relaxing. You should pull the trigger in a total relaxed state, no mussling. The after the hammer falls where one normally returns to the relaxed state, You are already there.

FUNDAMENTALS IS THE KEY TO TIGHT GROUPS
 
Gunzines and gunboards have led everybody to believe than an out of the box sporting rifle is a sure thing for sub-MOA accuracy.
But some of us old timers recall when it was a big thing when Weatherby "guaranteed" 1.5 MOA with their high end rifles.
1.5 MOA is 2.25" at 150 yards. Better is nice but don't be disappointed if that is all you get.
 
Some people are not happy unless their rifle shoots .25" groups at 200 yards. Personally I think for the most part that's a tad unrealistic, at least for the average off the shelf rifle although one is is more than sufficient for most hunting and preferably less if varmints are on the menu. For a big game rifle, 1.5" is the limit I set for my rifles. If it will not shoot at least a 1.5" group on a consistent basis, down the road it goes. That's the bad news. The good news is most of my rifles do better that that, sometimes very much better. Naturally these groups are off the bench. How well you shoot in offhand and other field positions is up to just how much time and practice you are willing to put out to achieve good hunting level groups. I prefer to find something to use as a rest whenever possible and will only shoot offhand as a last resort.
Paul B.
 
Many old timers remember when a 1" group at 100 yards was something achieved once in a lifetime; that piece of the target was cut out and carried in the shooter's wallet until it fell apart.

Now we know that today's rifles and ammunition are better than they ever were, and that MOA groups are no longer rare. But I wonder if it realistic to expect MOA or sub-MOA groups from a factory hunting rifle.

Have rifles and ammo improved that much? Or is some of the improvement in the story telling?

Jim
 
150 yards and hand loads, one should be able to hold 1 inch or smaller groups with almost any rifle these days. As stated previously - The 243 is one very nice shooting rifle.
 
Unless you carry a bench with you everywhere you hunt, wouldnt your "best" be what you do "on demand" from a field position?

You always hear about sub moa shooting at extended distances, but what are they being based on? Can you jump out of your truck, sprint 25 yards off the road, and still shoot that sub moa group at 200 yards? Can you even do it without a bench?

Seems to me, as long as you can hit the vital zone of whatever it is your shooting, at any reasonably expected range, on demand, and from whatever position is offered, if its in that vital zone, who cares if its a few inches off expected POI, one way or the other?
 
It's based on the distance you can put the first shot in a 12 inch pie plate. If anyone complains you politely and respectfully ask them at what distance do they want to voluntarily stand with a 12 inch pie plate pinned to their chest. I have never had anyone complain about my accuracy. :D
 
Have rifles and ammo improved that much? Or is some of the improvement in the story telling?
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Three shot "groups."

Once upon a time accuracy was based on ten shot groups because ten shots on a bullseye target is 100 points possible and that is what everybody DID in those days.
 
If the rifle is a hunting rifle where the first shot hits is most important.

Game can be taken with the first shot.

If the hunting rifle does not stay sighted in then a small group does not matter!

Here is proof that my favorite was ready.

DSCN0057.jpg
 
Rancid wrote above:

"It's based on the distance you can put the first shot in a 12 inch pie plate."

That makes sense for hunting rifles.
 
i may be wrong, but didn't rigby or holland and holland say they're groups were 3" or better.
i shoot at a 3" diamond at 50, 100, and 150 yards for my hunting rifle. my 444 in tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel does .6" at 100yds. my 6.5 creedmoor with a 16 1/4" barrel can go at 150yards .5". if i can get 3" with my 1898 springfield in 30-40 krag(open sights) at 100 yards, i've pretty much got her licked.
 
Jeff Cooper, in "The Art of The Rifle" mentioned a man named Stewart Edward White, an American novelist and adventurer who lived in the 1920's & 1930's. White was able to, on demand, under any reasonable conditions and from any reasonable shooting position, place all of his shots within a 4" circle at 100 yards. Cooper called him a "Certified Master of the Art" but then went on to conclude at the end of that chapter that he did "not really know how to define a good shot."

The problem is that there are many variables that determine whether a group is good or bad and the context can turn a great group in to a terrible one or vice versa. If you're a benchrest competitor, a 1" group at 100 yards is a pretty bad day at the range. If all you care about is deer hunting, a 1" group at 100 yards is really great shooting, particularly if it's from a field position.
 
Standing, sitting, rest, scoped or irons, purpose?

I should benchrest only. What I shoot at 50, 100 and 200 with a benchrest setup would make all hunters happy. Out in the field, not as good as pretty much anyone on this board.
 
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