About those "sophisticated" bombs supposedly coming from Iran

S

SteelCore

New member
We've heard the media uncritically regurgitate a lot of the claims made by the White House and Pentagon about "highly sophisticated explosively-formed penetrators" (EFPs) being sent from Iran to Iraqi insurgents. The implication is that these devices are so sophisticated that the Iraqi insurgents couldn't be making them by themselves; thus, they must be getting outside help. So, we need to to attack Iran, since they're helping to kill our troops!

Well, I call BS. This is just another lie intended to fool the public into supporting yet another US offensive in the Middle East.

There is NOTHING sophisticated about EFPs. If you have high explosives (and the Iraqi insurgents have tons available to them from raided armories), then anyone with an IQ above 70 can make an EFP in his kitchen, garage, or basement. Directions are widely available on the Internet. (In fact, making the explosive itself isn't too difficult.)

Here's a video of one being made and used just to show you how low-tech they are. The instructions for making the very device used in the video can be found anywhere (both Internet and books):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LudNqf56AFo

America is being lied to again.
 
Iraq has had the capability to make the metal components for an EFP since the early bronze age at least. It's a sheet of copper shaped into a cone or parabola, no more, no less.

I wonder what Nebuchodnezzer would say if he heard that Iraq is not advanced enough to make a copper cone several thousand years after much finer metalworking became an everyday business in the region...
 
That was a much different, and more enlightened culture back then. An actual culture that designed and built things, not one that just fires AKs in the air, steals, destroys, and crouches in the dust.

The makers of the Harp of Ur and all those stone lions, dressed in their brightly-colored silken finery and jewelry, working with advanced mathematics, arguing philosophy or designing things like the Hanging Gardens... would absolutely not recognize today's blank-eyed, furious mobs shouting 'allaallaallah' in the streets of what were their cities.

sumeri14.jpg
nebune.jpg


This is what was. Those there now have just been scrabbling in the ruins since people in Egypt stole the polished limestone off the Pyramids to build mosques with.
 
It's funny how they are starting to justify war with Iran on "intelligence"... the same "intelligence" that put us in Iraq? HAH! what a joke indeed.
 
Islam had a monopoly on intellectual enlightenment through most of european history so you have to cut them some slack. If it were not for the Muslims, europeans would still be digging potatos with their hands in some feudal nightmare. They kept science moving while europe went all to hell for centuries at a time.

If we take on Iran it will be the ugliest thing since WWI/II. It's a bad idea. I bet the CIA is still worth its salt, but the current administration has lost all credibility. These weird allegations about EFPs smell funny.
 
Soldier of Fortune published an article on EFPs which included drawing and illustrations of what they look like and how they work. A welder, some pipe, malleable metal, and military or industrial grade explosives, you're in business.
I still have that issue.;)

I'm not likely to believe anything El Diablo Presidente or his minions have to say about the ME these days.:barf:
 
There is NOTHING sophisticated about EFPs.
Click to expand...

That is like saying there is nothing sophisticated about projectile weapons, although anyone can discern a difference between a flintlock pistol and a MBT's 120mm main gun.

Yes, simple EFPs can be built in garages or basements using pipes, sheet metal, explosives, and instructions from the internet. At the other end of the spectrum, there are sophisticated EFPS where "Scientists use design models and shock physics codes to predict terminal shape of projectiles."

You can also build a simple shaped charge in your garage or basement, but it will not be as effective as a RPG-7 and nowhere near as effective as a RPG-29's tandem shaped charges.
 
They kept science moving while europe went all to hell for centuries at a time.
Click to expand...
Not really. They just sort of sat on Greek and pre-Islamic science until Europeans rediscovered it prior to the fall of Constantinople.
 
gc70,

That's an interesting article, and I have no doubt that analyzing the behavior of EFPs is a very complicated engineering problem requiring the use of sophisticated computer models.

Nevertheless, analyzing an EFP isn't the same as making one. The latter is much, much easier to do. We saw how it's done in the video there -- it's something a kindergartener could do. And again, detailed instructions on their construction are available anywhere.

Certainly EFPs can be optimized, and doing so would require sophisticated methods. But I don't think optimization is necessary for EFPs to be devastating -- much like a homemade shotgun can kill you as easily as a Benelli. Look at what the small, simple device in the video was capable of doing to 1.5" of steel -- a piece of steel that was strong enough to take a blast from an unconfined lump of C-4 with only a dent. Now imagine a device like that scaled up to use 20, 50, or even more pounds of explosives stolen from an armory.

Apart from the simplicity of these devices, there's also the point that the Iranians would have to be awfully stupid to send devices to the Iraqis that essentially had "Made In Iran" stamped on them. If the Iranians were going to send weapons clandestinely to Iraq, they'd make sure they weren't traceable.

None of "our" government's story makes sense, and I strongly suspect another lie, just like these past lies:

http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/thelies_of_the_leadership 1.htm
 
Islam had a monopoly on intellectual enlightenment through most of european history so you have to cut them some slack.
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Why?
Their sophistication relative to the Franks 700 years ago has nothing to do with the fact that they are now our enemies. And backwards ones at that.
No slack.

(Save your keystrokes, I am opposed to the present program of foreign adventure. I think it is sufficient to defeat our enemies, not to try to remake them in our own image and keep them mad at us.)
 
None of "our" government's story makes sense, and I strongly suspect another lie, just like these past lies:
Click to expand...

I don't know about the veracity of any particular government statement. However, I would not be surprised if the Iranians were supplying the Iraqi insurgents with advanced weaponry. Supplying weapons to your enemy's enemies is a time-honored way to aggravate your enemy and field-test new weapons.
 
This smells a lot like those aluminum "centrifuge" tubes.

A shaped charge is easy enough to make. I'm sure that anyone who's taken high-school physics could pull it off.
Or for that matter, anyone who's seen the Discovery channel, has access to the internets...

Does this mean the Iranians aren't supporting the insurgents? No.
Of course they are. Right along with everyone else in the region (including us).
Everyone knows Iraq isn't gonna make it. They're all hoping that it will topple in their favor.
 
This smells a lot like those aluminum "centrifuge" tubes.

A shaped charge is easy enough to make. I'm sure that anyone who's taken high-school physics could pull it off.
Or for that matter, anyone who's seen the Discovery channel, has access to the internets...

Does this mean the Iranians aren't supporting the insurgents? No.
Of course they are. Right along with everyone else in the region (including us).
Everyone knows Iraq isn't gonna make it. They're all hoping that it will topple in their favor.

(edit)

I found this amusing:
nebune.jpg

^ Malleable paraboloid! The ancient Sumerians are supporting the insurgents! :eek: (edit)
 
A little research will show Iran's been in this thing for ages - same on the other front in Lebanon with Hizbollah and Israel last year.

Not everything is some grand conspiracy. We've actually been incredibly restrained to date around Iran. Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen.

-K

(Personally, I'm coming to the conclusion we might have been better off if we leveled Tehran in 1979...)
 
My college classmate ran a powder company with his step dad, they had something similar to RDX IIRC, he stated they would make shaped charges out of simple cones, anything cone shaped, & they once used the top of a magnum wine bottle to make a shaped charge for blasting holes into huge metal bars.

From their description it wasn't tough to make a shaped charge. :confused:
 
There are shaped charges, and there are shaped charges. Some are quite simple to make, and efficiency is replaced with size. More explosives, more metal, and you get what you need. On the other side are shaped charges that are mandated to provide maximum efficiency in minimum size. These represent military-grade weaponry, and are much easier to concela, aim, and are much more reliable. They will also increase the range of effectiveness.

I'm quite certain that Iran is providing selected groups with material. It is in their best interests to hasten the departure of Coalition Forces. The weaker the remaining government is, the easier it will be to nibble off pieces of Iraq.

Just an aside, but moving hundreds of pounds of explosives, sheets of metal, and detonators around Iraq is a great way to lose them. With the Iraqi people beginning to tire of their own children being blown up by "insurgents" for no reason other than body count, it's becoming harder for the terrorist groups to locate buildings in which to build these devices. It's not like they can drive tractor-trailers around the neighborhoods. Most of the simpler devices are made locally, and the Iraqi and US forces are getting better at finding them. Hence, the appearance of military-grade devices was easily noted. As the Hadjis aren't the brightest bulbs in the chandeliers, several have been found in vehicles as they were transported. Forensics can be used to determine formulations for explosives, metals, and other devices, identifying their point of manufacture.

I don't see it as an overture to attack Iran. Then again, I don't wear Reynolds Wrap hats, either.
 
The angle of the shaped charge depends directly on the detonation velocity of the material used to make the charge.
While almost any cone shap will produce some effect, it takes at least some knowledge of the explosive charecteristics to make one thet works well.
 
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