about this "bad gasoline", the distribution of which seems to have been quite broad

A

alan

New member
1. A whole lot more than buggered up (nonoperational) fuel gauges, simply an inconvenience, is involved here.

2. How about messed up catalytic converters.

3. How about messsed up fuel injectors.

4. How about general and expensive to repair engine damage.

5. Given that all the firms involved (oil companies) have been in the business for quite a few years, how could so many people who presumably knew what they were doing, have managed to screw up so badly? Is what we see here the ultimate victory of the "cost cutters", the "bottom line" types, who seem bent on eliminating/cutting costs hither, thither and yon, with no regard whatever to the fact that some costs (quality control and analysis) represent absolute necessities?

6. At the end of the day, likely a long time coming, who do you think that it will be that actually pays the tab?

Moderator: If you think the foregoing is to far afield, kill the piece, your choice. I believe that the matter bears a whole lot of thought and questioning.
 
The "bad gas" thing was scattered throughout the midwest. We had it here in the Louisville metro area. It was confined to one distributor in our area who served a bunch of stations. It was identified fairly quickly and the oil company is making good on the damage, but the line at the mechanic shops is long.

The diagnosis by the state lab was that one of the chemicals, I forget which one, had too high a concentration in the mix and was corroding the contacts in the tank sensor. The odd thing, at least in our area is that some of the vehicles are "fixing themselves". After a couple of tankfuls of good gas, the problem clears up in some cases.

We haven't had any cases of items 2-4 that alan listed in our area. Can't say about other areas because the story dropped off the map in this area after they figured out what it was.

To address item#5, someone in the processing plant screwed up. It happens. I'm not prepared to write off the entire industry because of one mistake.

Who will pay for it? The consumer. Just like any business, whether it be oil, or groceries, you cover your costs in your prices.
 
garrettwc:

Re the following, that you wrote, "To address item#5, someone in the processing plant screwed up. It happens. I'm not prepared to write off the entire industry because of one mistake." I'm not prepared to "write off" the entire industry either.

To clarify my meaning, seems that clarification is necessary, the original problem started with Shell and their agent, the "refinery operator". From what I had heard in the course of radio newscasts, there were "fuel quality" problems with gasoline from other refiners also. This included, as memory serves Texaco and a couple of others that supposedly were involved with "fuel problems" in Pennsylvania.

This is not "the entire industry", however with respect to manufacturing/processing operations, a number of firms have been shortchanging maintenance type work for some time now, and this causes problems sooner or later. Seems likely that quality control and chemical analysis, being "overhead" type functions suffer at the hands of the "bottom liners", though the customer suffers also, as always.
 
This actually came up last weekend on NPR's "Car Talk" program. A lady called in about the problem and had an offer to have her fuel guage repaired so long as she gave up her rights to seek any another damages. She was advised not to sign away her rights. The problem, it seems, was due to sulfur in the gasoline. The initial damage was to fuel guages, but would undoubtedly affect other aspects.

alan, how could people screw up? You are kidding right? Let's see, first there is the fairly complicated refinery process that was developed by imperfect people, run by imperfect people, and maintained by imperfect people. Oh! Wait, I think I found the problem!

What this problem helps shed light on is the fact that all the different oil companies really aren't all that different and everybody dips into much of the same supply and the suppliers provide fuel to many brands of station.
 
Double Naught Spy:

I used to design oil refinery piping systems, as well as sometimes working "on site" re the construction/revamp of such installations. Over the years, I also learned a little about oil production, drilling, and refinery operations, which as you noted, are somewhat complicated, in addition to being dangerous, a lot more dangerous than many realize.

Quality Control, and lab analysis are one way of eliminating at least some of the problems, however such efforts cost money, and are viewed by some as non profit producing expenditures, or overhead, the first thing to be cut or eliminated by the bean counters. These people are also the first to cut maintenance. Of course, they then wear a "pained expression" on their faces, when things break or blow up. They simply cannot understand how "that" happened, or so the story goes.

By the way re your comment on people fouling up, and my kidding, when I was working in design, I often wore out the erasing end of my pencil, before I wore out the drawing end. We had checkers to catch mistakes too, some of which I made, some of which I caught, when I worked as a checker. I suppose that some would call it quality control, and it was not only necessary, it invariably proved itself worth while, for it's a whole lot less expensive to fix mistakes with a pencil, than it is to fix them with oxy-acetylene cutting torches. Didn't Motiva, the refinery operator run sulfur content analysis of their feed stock first thing. Seemingly not, which leaves one wondering as to why they didn't?

As to your last observation, for the same grade of gasoline, assuming that the various brands actually comply with quality specifications, I believe that state laws and or The API, or ASA might have something to offer here, there isn't the proverbial nickle's worth of difference from one brand to another. If your car runs properly on Regular Grade Gasoline, then using a higher octane product is simply throwing money away. Since it's your money though, you can do anything you like with it.

Finally, the problem is NOT localized, as was originally claimed or stated, and it's not limited to Shell Oil, Texaco brand gas is involved too, as might other names be. Run a google search (www.google.com) under high sulfur gasoline, and see what comes up. It's quite interesting.

Carlos 762:

The "little guy", might well end up getting screwed here, we shall have to see what happens, as with whose checkbook will be opened, and to what extent. Otherwise, thank you for tour good wishes, so far as I can tell, I've had no fuel problems.
 
alan:

Sorry to take so long responding. Busy few days with some real crazy ones to go.

I think I can agree with you on your clarified statement. When the desire to maintain the bottom line clashes with the necessary expenses, QC suffers. Especially so in a high volume production environment.

You are also correct that the problem is not isolated to Shell, you mentioned Texaco, and the distributor here is from another one of the big oil companies. I don't know enough about the distribution channels to know if all of these are from the same refinery operator, but that would make sense.

The quiet undercurrent in this thread (and the first thing I thought of) is how aparently easy it would be for terrorists to sabotage the supply.
 
Alan, how many refineries in the US? Each of the refineries does oil for multiple companies. It is easy for oil refined at one refinery to make it a long way across the country, at least regionally. That is what happened in this case.

Well, I think you explained a lot of the problem yourself. How could this happen? I stand by my imperfect people comment. As you noted, you were part of the problem and part of the solution and as a person part of the solution, you become an additional part of the problem. People cut corners and you noted, be it at the individual or corporate level. No surprises there. You also noted danger. Very good.

Yes, the operation is dangerous. Imperfect people run imperfect refineries, often cutting corners, and they occasionally blow up or catch fire. I lived close enough to Texas City to see just how easily refineries do have catastrophic failures. Between the refineries, docks, and various related businesses, Texas City had one major disaster about every 2 years. More often than not, they were refinery disasters. If people are able to get themselves blown up or fried by the refinery process, no doubt that some are likely to have some errors in the refining of oil.

Yes, there is supposed to be QC. In an ideal work, no bad products would go out the factory door or off the refinery grounds, but it happens. This just happened to be a mistake that affected a lot of people. QC is an ongoing problem in a lot of places. Take a look at some of the Colt threads in regard to QC. Wow, how could it happen? Please!
 
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