Battle Between Clinton & NRA
Nightline
Wednesday, March 15, 2000
(This is an unedited, uncorrected transcript.) Prepared by Burrelle’s Information Services, which takes sole responsibility for accuracy of transcription
CHRIS WALLACE, ABCNEWS Has the gun lobby gone too far?
WAYNE LAPIERRE The key question here for the president is has he looked into the eyes of Ricky Byrdsong’s family, because that blood is on his hands.
CHRIS WALLACE Is the White House using gun control for political purposes?
JOE LOCKHART The executive vice president of the NRA made personally just sick charges—leveled sick charges against the president.
WAYNE LAPIERRE His policies of not enforcing existing federal gun law are getting people killed.
CHRIS WALLACE Tonight, it’s getting ugly. Bill Clinton vs. the NRA.
ANNOUNCER From ABCNEWS, this is Nightline. Substituting for Ted Koppel and reporting from Washington, Chris Wallace.
CHRIS WALLACE Just when it looked like the battle over gun control couldn’t get any meaner, any more personal, it has. Today, one of the heads of the NRA said the president has
blood on his hands from a murder last summer. We’ll get to the merit to that charge in a moment.
As for the president, whose rhetoric has been milder only by comparison, he accused the NRA of devious, underhanded trickery. A cynic might say that both sides are playing politics
here, that the president sees a good issue for the Democrats in November and is pressing it, and that the NRA sees a way to raise money and membership and is pressing it. But behind
the overheated language is the very real issue of how best to try to stop the killing in America.
The president says more controls on guns can only help, but the NRA says there are enough laws on the books already and that the White House isn’t enforcing them. Here’s
Nightline’s Michel McQueen.
MICHEL MCQUEEN, ABCNEWS (VO) The atmosphere seemed congenial enough at the White House this morning where the president asked members of Congress to help him
push for new gun laws.
PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON I got a little tickled over the weekend when they got a little rough with me. I mean, I—you know, I have so much scar tissue now, I can’t even feel it.
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) But presidential spokesman Joe Lockhart was not laughing.
JOE LOCKHART They are filling the airwaves up now with millions of dollars of advertisements that are kindly—can be kindly called trash. The executive vice president of the NRA
made personally just sick charges—leveled sick charges against the president last week, which, by the way, I haven’t seen Mr. Heston or anyone in the NRA repudiate.
MICHEL MCQUEEN Lockhart was talking about what has become an unusually nasty exchange between the Clinton administration and the National Rifle Association, rough stuff
even by the standards of an election year.
CHARLTON HESTON (From NRA commercial) Bill Clinton says the NRA stands in the way of sensible gun safety, but the truth is Bill Clinton fought legislation that requires safety
locks on new...
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) It started with a national ad campaign sponsored by the NRA.
CHARLTON HESTON (From NRA commercial) But now he blames the NRA. Mr. Clinton, when what you say is wrong, that’s a mistake. When you know it’s wrong, that’s a lie.
Remember?
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) Then the battle spilled onto ABC’s Sunday talk show.
BILL CLINTON (From talk show) And, you know, all this—this sort of wounded rhetoric by the NRA, given how ruthlessly brutal they were to members who were brave enough to
vote for the Brady Bill and the assault weapons ban is, you know, these crocodile tears, I don’t think it’ll wash with the voters...
SAM DONALDSON Mr. President, I...
BILL CLINTON ...even with Moses reading the script.
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) Minutes later, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre lobbed this personal attack back at the president.
WAYNE LAPIERRE I mean, I’ve come to believe he needs a certain level of violence in this country. He’s willing to accept a certain level of killing to further his political agenda. And
the vice president, too. I mean, how else can you explain this dishonesty we get out of the administration?
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) President Clinton has kept up the fight in public appearances throughout the week. On Monday, in Cleveland...
BILL CLINTON Maybe he really believes this, but if he does, we’ve got even more trouble than if it’s just a horrible political mistake.
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) At a library later the same day...
BILL CLINTON Well, he could say that on television, I guess. I’d like to see him look into the eyes of little Kayla Rolland’s mother and say that or the parents at Columbine or
Springfield, Oregon, or Jonesboro, Arkansas, or the families of those people that were shot in Memphis.
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) And a fund-raiser in Chicago that night.
BILL CLINTON I really regret that the NRA leader—I guess he was frustrated, and sometimes when you—when you don’t have a defense for your position, the best thing to do is just
attack your opponent. And that’s what he did.
CHARLTON HESTON (From NRA Commercial) Does it bother you that when somebody commits a crime with a gun, Mr. Clinton pops up on TV with another gun law?
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) The NRA has not been content to let their ads, 13 in all, speak for themselves.
WAYNE LAPIERRE The NRA is not going to let go of this issue because...
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) Today, in an interview with ABC’s John Cochran, LaPierre leveled what may be his most pointed attack on the president yet, saying the president had blood
on his hands for the shooting death of Northwestern University’s basketball coach Ricky Byrdsong last summer.
WAYNE LAPIERRE The question here is, has the president looked into the eyes of Ricky Byrdsong’s family, because that death is on his hands. Ben Smith walked into a gun store on
June 23rd, was flagged under the instant check system, committing a brand new federal felony right under the president’s nose. The president’s policy did nothing to him except let him
walk out the door and go home.
MICHEL MCQUEEN The NRA argues that Benjamin Smith’s history of violence—he had been arrested for battery and drug use—should have led authorities to prosecute him after
he failed the background check. But the government says that’s absurd. They say it is simply not feasible to make an on-the-spot arrest of every individual who fails a gun store check.
Three days later, Smith bought a gun from a private individual, killed two people, including Byrdsong, and wounded nine before killing himself.
VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE Some of those were fighting words.
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) The debate is adding extra fuel to the election campaign. Vice President Al Gore has demanded an apology from LaPierre.
AL GORE Anyone who has spent time, as I have many times, with the families of the victims of gun violence, and felt the heartache, seen the way gun violence tears families apart,
couldn’t possibly make such a comment.
GOVERNOR GEORGE W BUSH Thank you all for coming.
MICHEL MCQUEEN (VO) Republican contender George W. Bush, whose political backers are more skeptical of gun control, tried to lower the volume.
GEORGE W BUSH I would hope that we could have an open and honest discussion about gun enforcement without calling names.
MICHEL MCQUEEN Lost in the din of this week’s ugly debate is that most Americans agree on a number of things. First and foremost, they want the killing to stop. Large majorities
support gun control measures, but ironically they don’t give the issue a high priority because they don’t think new laws will do much to stop the violence. This is Michel McQueen for
Nightline in Washington.
CHRIS WALLACE When we come back, we’ll be joined by two women who know firsthand about gun violence, but whose views on gun control are very different.
ANNOUNCER This is ABCNEWS: Nightline, brought to you by...
(Commercial Break)
CHRIS WALLACE Joining us live now from Austin, Texas, is state legislator Suzanna Hupp. In 1991, a gunman opened fire on patrons eating lunch in a diner and killed 24 people,
including Ms. Hupp’s parents. And joining us here in Washington, Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy, whose husband was among those killed in 1993 by a gunman on the Long
Island railroad. Representative Hupp, let’s start with the NRA’s rhetoric, which is getting so much attention right now. ‘The president needs a certain level of violence. He has blood on
his hands.’ Isn’t that way over the line?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP, REPUBLICAN TEXAS STATE LEGISLATOR Honestly, I don’t believe it is. Mr. LaPierre was stating his belief, and I support the First Amendment
just as I do the Second. You know, it seems to me that the NRA has been placed—set out to be this evil alien empire and, quite frankly, the NRA is made up of American citizens like me
who put our money into them and say go forth and protect our rights. That’s what the NRA is.
CHRIS WALLACE But—but blood on his hands? I mean, it—what about the fact that Mr. LaPierre apparently got his facts wrong, and that there was no way that the federal
government could have stopped the Byrdsong tragedy?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Well, I believe his point was that the laws that are currently in effect need to be upheld, and that’s the way I took that. I don’t think he was trying to be
specific with the federal or state government.
CHRIS WALLACE But—but blood on his hands is a pretty ugly phrase.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Yes, it is. Yes, it is. But I think if you go back and look at it, you know, that’s—that’s fighting fire with fire. I don’t really have a problem with that phrase.
CHRIS WALLACE Congresswoman McCarthy, the NRA may be a lot of things, but it isn’t stupid. Why are they talking so tough? What do you think they are getting out of this?
REPRESENTATIVE CAROLYN MCCARTHY, DEMOCRAT, NEW YORK Well, number one, I think they are looking out for fund-raising so that they can defeat members like
myself come this November. I’m—I’m sorry that the leadership is taking this course. I happen to know a lot of NRA members that don’t feel this way whatsoever, who actually agree
on what we’re trying to do, as far as putting responsibility onto those gun owners that already have guns, but also trying to keep guns away from criminals. I personally feel that they
have gone over the line, mainly because there are many of us in Congress, certainly, trying to reduce gun violence in this country. And what they say to the president, who I happen to
believe has done the most he can and in his terms to reduce gun violence, they’re putting that same mark on us. And believe me, I am doing everything in the world to make sure that we
can reduce gun violence in this country.
CHRIS WALLACE Congresswoman, if you put the rhetoric aside, doesn’t the NRA have a point about enforcement? I saw a recent study that indicated the number of federal weapons
cases has dropped recently by about a third.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Well, and I happen to agree, but one of the things that we should be doing, and I’m going to be doing that next week, is introducing a bill where we’ll get
financial aid, hopefully from Congress, and hopefully the NRA will agree with us, where we’ll get 500 new alcohol and tobacco so they can trace these illegal guns, but also have 1,000
more federal prosecutors. We can always do more to enforce the laws. No one is saying that we shouldn’t be doing a better job on that.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP I think many people agree with, we want—we definitely want to get out there and enforce the laws that are already currently in effect. There’s no doubt
about that.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY But what comes back down to it, the kind of killings that we’ve seen and what’s been happening in our schools is still the easy access to guns and certainly
having criminals having an easy time buying guns.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Chris, this is where I’ve got to jump in and say, you know, I keep hearing this terminology about easy access to guns. And the fact of the matter is
that there’s always been far easier access to guns, and we haven’t seen the things that we—that we are now seeing, we didn’t see these things in the past. I will tell you
that I was in that restaurant when my parents were killed. I was there, and the only thing that the current laws, or the laws at that time did, was prevent me from being
able to protect myself and my family. It did nothing for the guy who went insane and wanted to kill a lot of people.
CHRIS WALLACE Explain that, Representative. How did the laws prevent you from protecting your family?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Well at that time in the state of Texas, we did not have a concealed carry—any type of permitting system whatsoever. So, unfortunately, I along with several
other people, one of which was killed and one of which whose wife was killed, our guns were out in our cars. The bad guy knew that. He knew that. It was like walking—I can begin to
tell you how frustrating it is to feel like you’re a fish in a barrel just waiting for it to be your turn.
CHRIS WALLACE But Representative, are you—really....
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP You—with—with the help—you know...
CHRIS WALLACE ...Representative, let me just ask you a question. Are you really suggesting that the answer to the gun problem in this country, and I can understand, it’s a very
personal issue for you, not theoretical...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP CHRIS WALLACE ...but everyone in that diner, everyone in the classroom, everyone in every situation, everyone in Congresswoman McCarthy’s
husband’s train should have their own gun and they should all be blasting one another?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP No sir. No, sir, of course not. What I am saying is that a gun is merely a tool that you should be able to have access to if you so choose to use it.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY You know, again, anything that we’re doing is not restricting someone to be able to own a gun, but I have to disagree as far as everyone having concealed
weapons. You know, in this day and age where we’re seeing tempers flare even more often than none, we see road rage on a continuous basis, our police officers do not want people,
citizens, to have concealed weapons. I think this is only compounding to the incidents of gun violence in this country. You know, you have to remember, we have many other countries
that don’t have the amount of guns that we are now putting in everybody’s hands and they certainly don’t have the incidence...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Carolyn—Carolyn, we don’t want to get into statistics. Let’s face it, right now you and I both know that every state that has enacted concealed
carry, the violent crime that is, crime against you and I, against individuals, goes down dramatically. We’ve seen it.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY This is—this is something...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP In Australia—in Australia they’ve banned guns and, interestingly, hand—robberies—armed robberies, even though hand guns are banned, armed robberies
have gone up dramatically, by 44 percent.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY But why...
CHRIS WALLACE Representative McCarthy, we have to break in here, Representative Hupp, but Representative McCarthy I promise I’ll give you the first word when we get back. And
we’ll continue our discussion in a moment.
(Commercial Break)
TEXT: POLL Margin of Error +/- 3.0% Whom do you trust on the issue of gun control? GORE 47% BUSH 36%
CHRIS WALLACE And we’re back again with Texas legislator Suzanne Hupp and Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy. Congresswoman, I want to get back to the question of
enforcement, because it is one of the NRA’s big issues. Why isn’t the federal government doing a better job of enforcing the laws already on the books?
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Well I’ll be vert honest with you. We started looking into that a couple of months ago. And, basically, it all comes down to, we don’t have the manpower to do
it. Now we started enforcing laws more, as we certainly put more police officers on the street. Again, I’m saying that next week we’ll be introducing legislation to put a 1,000 new
prosecutors on the street, 500 more alcohol and tobacco, so they can do the tracing on—with these illegal guns, where they’re coming from. If you understand what we’re saying, we are
trying to stop the best way we can from criminals getting their guns. Not the honest citizen. They’ll still be able to buy their guns, and I think people have to understand that. But I have
to tell you, we’re losing, still, too many people on a daily basis. And over a year’s time, no other country in the world even comes anywhere near us, not even one-tenth as far as the
killings, and we’re actually doing better than we’ve ever done before and no one is bringing into the subject on those that are surviving and what that’s costing our health-care system.
CHRIS WALLACE Representative Hupp, do you support that extra $280 million in the president’s new budget to put more prosecutors in the courts, more ATF agents on the street?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Yeah. Well, certainly, off the top of my head, absolutely. I am in full agreement with that. Chris, I’ve got to tell you, I’m a mom. I have a four-year-old, I
have a one-and-a-half-year-old, and I’ve lived it. And I can tell you that the only thing laws like this do is affect people like me. They don’t affect bad guys. They keep people like me
from being able to protect myself and my family.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY See, I don’t agree—I don’t agree with that at all...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP I’ve lived it, Carolyn. I’ve been there.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY ...because again—but again you are going to be able to still have your gun. And I’m saying we should do a better job in making sure and doing the best we
can so criminals don’t get guns.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP I agree with that.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Criminals will always get guns.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP I agree with that wholeheartedly.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY But we can do a better part of it, but we still...
CHRIS WALLACE Representative Hupp, let me ask you about a couple of specific things that the president has in the legislation that he wants Congress to pass and that it hasn’t so
far. Trigger locks on new guns.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Yes. Completely against it. Now...
CHRIS WALLACE Why?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Let me explain that. Again, I have a four-year-old and a one-and-a-half-year-old. I have trigger locks on my guns, but there are hundreds of thousands of
gun owners that do not have children. When you require a trigger lock on a gun, what that does is drive the price of a gun up. That not only ends up being discriminatory
but potentially racist, because the people that really need the weapons—the people that tend to be the poor and the minorities in the inner cities are the ones that can
no longer afford to purchase one.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Wait a minute. Number one, I think that we can see trigger locks—and I’ve certainly seen decent trigger locks from the—from the prices of $15 to $75.
Basically, what we have to understand, there are so many...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP And, boom, you’ve priced it out of the range of a lot of poor people.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY No, I’m sorry. I disagree with that. And if we see our gun manufacturers actually get on board, guns will be sold with trigger locks. You have to understand, if
we’re going to have guns everywhere across this nation, then it’s OK that parents say to their neighbors, ‘Do you have a gun in that house?’ We are losing...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP I’ve got to tell you...
CAROLYN MCCARTHY ...we are losing too many children on a daily basis.
CHRIS WALLACE Representative—Representative Hupp, let me ask you about another one, waiting periods for people to be able to buy guns?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Once again all that does is hurt the law abiding people. And I think that’s been evidenced over and over and over again. If I...
CAROLYN MCCARTHY How does that hurt somebody when 90 percent of people when they go through the instant check automatically get the permission to buy their guns?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Carolyn...
CAROLYN MCCARTHY The 10—the 10 percent...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP ...Carolyn, he wasn’t talking about insta check, he was talking about a waiting period.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY The waiting period basically is turned over to the instant check unless there is a red flag, and then yes...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP I don’t have a problem with the insta check. I have a problem with the waiting period. That is what he asked me.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Why? Why?
CHRIS WALLACE But wait, Representative Hupp, why would you have a problem if it took two days, let’s say, to find out if someone had been in a mental institution or had a criminal
record?
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Absolutely. WALLACE: Don’t we all want to wait for that?
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Absolutely.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Sir, I—I absolutely believe in an instant check system, and again I’m telling you that laws like this only go after law abiding people.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY That’s not true.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP And I think that’s been evidenced—it is true, and it has been shown over and over...
CAROLYN MCCARTHY That’s not true. We have been able to stop so many felons from not getting...(Then ARREST THEM)
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Let me...
CHRIS WALLACE Representative Hupp...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP ...let me tell you...
CHRIS WALLACE ...Representative Hupp, let Ms. McCarthy speak, if you will.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Can I just jump in?
CHRIS WALLACE No, you jumped in before. Let her speak if you will.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY You know, I have to say, you know, since the Brady bill was enacted we have been able to stop so many felons from getting guns and it has not hurt the
honest citizen. Now those that come up with a red flag...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Ma’am, I’ve...
CAROLYN MCCARTHY I’m sorry, you’re wrong on this. We have all the statistics on that.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP And that’s incorrect. Again, if you want to look at statistics...
CAROLYN MCCARTHY This is the same thing we heard when we were trying to get the Brady bill done. ‘Oh, this is going to hurt everybody.’ It hasn’t hurt everybody. The normal
citizens go and still get their gun. And you know what?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP That simply isn’t true, Carolyn.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Sometimes if there’s a red—if there’s a red flag, what is wrong with waiting two to three days to be able to get your gun?
CHRIS WALLACE Representative Hupp, would you put any limits on guns—any limits at all?
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Well, certainly. I don’t think felons should own guns. Basically, I think anybody that can vote, this is where I peg it. Anybody that can vote, in other words
you’re of legal age, and you don’t have any felony offenses, and you don’t have any mental illness history, then guess what? Yeah, you can own.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY But we’re not stopping any of those people. We’re stopping the people with felonies and mental illness, anybody that has a record.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Oh, you mean like the guy that walked into the restaurant I was in and murdered a bunch of people?
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Well, we...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Yeah, we did a great job of stopping him, Carolyn.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY That was in...
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Those laws don’t affect those people.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY ...that was in 1993.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Chris? Chris? Can I go ahead and make a point here since I let her go for a minute?
CAROLYN MCCARTHY That was in 1993, we did not enact the bills at that time.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP That was in ’91. Chris? Can I go ahead and make...
CHRIS WALLACE You have about ten seconds, go ahead Representative Hupp.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP OK, there was a—I listened to a gang member one time who somebody asked him—he was a full-blown gang member and somebody asked him ‘How do
you feel about gun control laws?’ And he came back and he laughed. And he said ‘The only thing gun control laws do is make it not harder for me to get a gun, it makes it more
expensive for me to get a gun, and that means I have got to come out and rob you so I can get it.’
CHRIS WALLACE Representative Hupp, and I’m sorry Representative McCarthy, we’re going to have to end it there. We’re just flat out of time. Thank you both very much for
joining us tonight.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Thank you, Chris.
CAROLYN MCCARTHY Thank you.
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP Thank you very much.
CHRIS WALLACE We appreciate it. And I’ll be back with a program note in a moment.
(Commercial Break)
CHRIS WALLACE Tomorrow on Nightline, if you think that a presidential campaign is a carefully thought out, well executed affair, well think again. War stories from those on the
front lines, that’s tomorrow on Nightline. And that’s our report for tonight, I’m Chris Wallace in Washington. For all of us here at ABCNEWS, good night.
