AA #9 for 38 Special +P+

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beremp

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I have a S&W 686 chambered in 357 magnum. I have a lot of 38 special brass and a couple of pounds of #9 powder. Is there a load I can work up with this?

I know #9 powder is not suited for normal 38 special loads.

The revolver I will be using is more than capable of handling high pressures.

What would be a good starting load for 38 special brass and #9 powder? I am using 158gr xtp bullets.

Note that I only own 1 S&W 686 revolver in 357 magnum and I do not share my reloads with anybody so there is no risk that someone would use these hot loads in a small frame revolver.
 
I'm sure it could be done but you will find no published data for it. Without pressure testing equipment attempting 357 Magnum level loads in 38 Special brass would be foolhardy.

38 Special brass isn't as strong as 357 Magnum brass and isn't made to withstand high pressure loads and case life would be greatly shortened. I imagine your gun would also experience significant chamber erosion from firing high pressure loads from 38 Special cases in 357 Magnum chambers. You would be better off buying 357 Magnum cases from Starline and using published 357 Magnum data with your XTPs and AA#9. 500 cases from Starline are much cheaper than a new cylinder because of erosion or a new gun because you blew it up, or worse, injury to you or a bystander.
 
I don't agree with the post above. There is nothing whatsoever weaker about modern .38 Special brass compared to .357. Nothing at all.

To the subject, you will fail miserably to try and make working .38/.38+P with 158's and AA#9. Powder is too slow in a .38 case to make a decent 15-18k PSI load.

You could make absolutely fantastic .357 Magnum loads with those bullets, that brass and that powder. The very real risk and pitfall in doing so is quite simply that you will have 35k PSI full .357-spec ammo loaded in to brass that will make anyone/everyone (including YOU in on brief moment of weakness) believe it's safe for a .38 Special and it WILL NOT BE safe in a .38 Special.

The other warning anout damaging chambers or cylinder? Never going to happen, not in this lifetime.

The suggestion to find .357 brass is a fine suggestion.
 
357 Mag AA#9 158 gr published loads:

Hornady 2000 11.5 gr

"Midway Loadmap" 1999 15 different bullets 11.3~11.7 gr

"Modern Reloading" Richard Lee 1996 13 gr

"Speer 12" 1994 13.7 gr
"Speer 13" 1998 13.7 gr

Accurate pamphlets 1996, 1997, 1999, & 2000 13 gr
"Accurate Arms Number Two" book 2000 15 gr
Accurate pamphlet 2001 "new data" 15 gr

"Lyman's 47th" 1992 16 gr
"Lyman Pistol and Revolver" 1994 16 gr

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


For a test gun, I used a Colt Police Positive 38 Special from Aim surplus [$79].

I reamed the cylinder of Colt Police Positive to .357 mag length:

AA#9 1.590", 357 mag brass, wspm, hard crimp
16 gr OK!!
17 gr STOP! case stuck, hammered it out


-------------------
What does it all mean?
They have people off the street write the load manuals.
 
Welcome to reloading. Thanks for asking our advice.

Noting your post count, I am going to assume you have little experience with reloading. However, you are well-informed enough to know that #9 is inappropriate for use in 38 Special. Good on you.

The best thing to do is to use a powder appropriate for the cartridge, just as mmb713 suggests. If your available retailers don't have Unique or Bullseye or something for which published load data confirms it to be a good choice, see if you can find another loader who will trade some for your #9. Hopefully factory sealed.

Contacting the powder manufacturer will result in your best advice. If you are clear that you are loading 38 brass and want .357 pressures, they may share load data with you. Note that 38 Special ammo runs around 17,000 psi. 38+P runs around 20,000. .357 magnum goes up to 35,000. Getting into that range in the 38 Special case will require careful load workup. Something ballistics labs are equipped to do.

Now, I am going to go off the reservation here.

#1 Despite what mmb713 said, I believe your will find that 38 Special brass (OF MODERN MANUFACTURE) is as strong as 357 Brass. HOWEVER!!! A hot-loaded 38s may find their way into a gun not strong enough for them. No matter how careful you are with them, their labeling or handling.

#2. Every gunpowder has a pressure range within which it burns in a well-behaved fashion. Try to download or upload a powder outside that range will result in erratic performance. Stuck bullets or pressure spikes. Very dangerous.

Conclusion: If you do decide to load 38 Special brass to magnum pressures, you have to figure out how much to reduce your powder charges (because of the reduced internal cartridge volume) to keep pressures within that powder's performance envelope (pressure range). Without at least a chronograph this will be very difficult. And risky.

I have been loading for 4 decades and step outside published parameters VERY cautiously. Reloading may not be rocket science, but it does involve smoke and flame and things that move very fast and events that happen even faster.

In case I am not clear, Accurate #9 is too slow a powder to risk using without careful control of all the variables. For instance, a small change in internal volume can produce a MUCH greater change in peak pressure than you would expect from straight proportionality. If you don't have the empirical data from a ballistic lab's experiments in pressure guns. Actually, this caveat applies to any powder.

But, as I noted when I read your initial post, you are an observant and reasoning loader. I expect you will have a long and happy shooting and loading career. Welcome.

Be safe. Always. All ways.

Lost Sheep

p.s. Sevens and Clark posted while I was composing. Clark's post was especially interesting, as it does give recognition to the risks and one of the tools the experienced and seasoned reloader observes. Pressure signs. Sticky extraction is a big one. Rechambering a 38 to .357 is an advanced technique.
 
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NO

Lots of good information in the replies (along with some of the usual BS).

The bottom line for your question is simply that if you cannot find PUBLISHED load data for .38 Spl or .38 Spl +P ammo with the powder you have, DO NOT LOAD IT. Either get a different powder or get .357 brass.

Although the .38 brass is functionally identical to .357, and can technically handle the magnum loads, that is a fools game (even if you do have the knowledge needed to compensate for the shorter case length). IMHO only an idiot loads magnum loads in brass with a Spl head stamp.
 
Quickload, which is not at its best for straight walled pistol rounds, says 10.0 gr of AA#9 will fill the .38 Spl case to 62.9% and generate a MAP just under the 18.5 ksi SAAMI +P. But I wouldn't waste my .38 Spl brass when .357 Mag brass is abundant. Also, consider the possibility of excessive wear to the chamber and forcing cone from a short high intensity cartridge.

There have, of course, been heavy duty .38 Spl revolvers (S&W 38/44) that handled pretty heavy loads. And if I recall, Colt claimed their 38s would handle those rounds. Don't know what the loads were though. Clark demonstrated the strength of the old Colts, but I notice he used mag brass.

Regards the risk of putting an overloaded 38 into a standard revolver, the analogy is .45 Colt Ruger only rounds. For that reason, my only .45 revolver is a Blackhawk. If I decide to get a SAA replica (or a real one), it will be a 44-40. In fact, in writing this, I think I'll get some red tape and mark my ammo. If I die and leave that ammo for some innocent, St. Peter will likely lock the gate.

My advice: Don't do it.
 
I have not downloaded AA#9 in 38 sp /357 mag 158 gr, but I have with 44 special / 44 mag 240 gr.
AA#9 downloaded well with a smooth transition when I worked up between the 44 sp and 44 mag loads.

"Lyman Pistol and Revolver reloading handbook second edition" 1994:
357 mag AA#9 158 gr jhp 4" barrel universal receiver:
13 gr 881 fps 19,600 cup
16 gr 1243 fps 39,400 cup

"Vihtavuori Reloading Manual first edition" 1994
38 special max saami pressure 18900 cup / 18000 psi

That means, yes, you can do 38sp +P+ with AA#9 158 gr and be under load book and SAAMI control.

When I started reloading 16 years ago, Joe Waldron, pro gun debater on radio and TV and employee of second amendment foundation, would yell at me, "Still got all your fingers?"
Each of my loads he read, he would pronounce "crazy and dangerous". But if I produced some obscure load book with that load, he would say, "That's ok then."

He is really smart at what he does, but he is not visionary.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I know it's a dangerous load. But that is what I have on hand right now and want to see if I can make it work.

Here is what I have tried so far. I loaded 12.3 grains of AA9 into 38 Special brass with a 158gr XTP bullet and made the COL the same as a 357 magnum. The bullet wasn't seated very deep but deep enough to get a good crimp. These loads worked fine.

Now I want to start working up a load using 38 Special COL.

I know this is dangerous but I only have 1 revolver and it's a 357 magnum. Not one of my friends or shooting buddies have a 38 Special or 357 Magnum.
 
It will never happen!

I shot some 44 specials my dad had loaded up over the years. He had a Smith and Wesson model 624 that could take magnum loads.

However, Mr Bulldog did not like them so much. Gun was purchased the day before. Round #75 was the culprit.

Charter sent me a new gun even though I was using reloads.

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David
 

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"...38 Special brass isn't as strong as .357 Magnum brass..." Nonsense. Difference is the length and nothing else.
There's one AA #9 .38 +P load on Accurate's site. Not using a 158 though. Uses a cast 230.
12.3 grains of AA9 is a slightly below minimum .357 load running at about 35,022 PSI. Decidedly unsafe in a .38 case.
"...my dad had loaded..." Your dad is included in the 'Other People's reloads'.
No Smith and Wesson Model 624 is nor ever was rated for .44 Magnum ammo.
 
Here is what I have tried so far. I loaded 12.3 grains of AA9 into 38 Special brass with a 158gr XTP bullet and made the COL the same as a 357 magnum. The bullet wasn't seated very deep but deep enough to get a good crimp. These loads worked fine.

Now I want to start working up a load using 38 Special COL.
Click to expand...

If I were determined to pursue this approach, I would now chronograph the load at .357 length, then seat some bullets a bit deeper, but not all the way down to the cannelure. Chronograph them, adjust the powder charge until they shot no higher velocity, repeat. Keep shortening the OAL and reducing the powder charge to give no higher velocity than a starting .357 load and OAL until I got to Special length (crimping in the cannelure.)

This would give you something in the neighborhood of the old .38-44 High Velocity or perhaps the Keith or Skelton load.
 
It's just not worth the risk and trouble using #9 in the 38 Sp. when you can buy a can of appropriate powder for $25. Find another good use for the #9, like buying 100 pieces of .357 brass for $20. Save yourself the risk of heartache that comes from a mistake that tears up you and/or the gun.
 
Since you are going ahead, my advice is to memorize the list of pressure signs (no cost there) and get yourself a chronograph.

A chronograph will give you an objective indication of the pressure driving your bullets. When your bullets are traveling within the range of .357 Magnum velocities, you can be fairly well assured that your pressures are within .357 pressures. A hundred dollars or so is an investment that you will appreciate for the rest of your shooting career.

I shot for years without one (paper screens and unaffordable prices back in those days), but now that I have had one for a decade, I find a lot of fun in just knowing what velocities I am getting, aside from the ballistic information I get.

When I can find the link (lost in a computer failure) to the list of pressures signs I will post it.

Lost Sheep
 
When your bullets are traveling within the range of .357 Magnum velocities, you can be fairly well assured that your pressures are within .357 pressures.
Click to expand...

Isn't the velocity a function of the integral of all pressure over the time the bullet is moving in gun, and the peak pressure only one of those points?

This makes it possible for two different loads to have the same velocity and very different peak pressures.
 
Or for two loads to have the same peak pressure and different velocity.
Which is why +P does not guarantee higher performance if the powder is not well chosen.
 
I've worked up a few loads with cast bullets seated deeper than usual. Haven't used #9, haven't done this with jacketed bullets. In the loads I have used, velocities (so, pressure) went up considerably with a shorter oal.
12.3 gr of #9 at 38 length might be more than you want.
 
Late to the Party

Welcome to The Firing Line.

I like this thread. Too bad I'm late to the party :(

There is nothing whatsoever weaker about modern .38 Special brass compared to .357. Nothing at all.
Click to expand...

Yep. They're one in the same - except for length. As both Sevens (quote) and T. O'Heir stated.

To the subject, you will fail miserably to try and make working .38/.38+P with 158's and AA#9. . . . You could make absolutely fantastic .357 Magnum loads with those bullets, that brass and that powder.
Click to expand...

'xactly. You're not crafting 38+P ammo. You're crafting 357 Mag ammo - with really short cases. That is not to say you can use published load data for 357/158/AA#9. From a load data standpoint, you're on your own.

There was some talk about loading to 357 OAL, and thus, not crimping in the cannelure. I don't recommend this because it will most likely result in very inconsistent running ammo. AA#9 needs a good firm crimp. The crimp needs the cannelure to hold the bullet whilst the AA#9 gets to roaring real good inside the case.

You can build this ammo. It can be done. Keep in mind that - in general - the less case space, the faster the propellant's burn rate. So in a manner of speaking, AA#9 will behave as a faster powder in a 38 case than it would in a 357 case. You're in uncharted territory; or at least, unpublished territory.

I am neither recommending, nor discouraging this endeavor.

I will say this from an editorial standpoint: Personally, I would not do this. But I have guns chambered in 38 Special. Somehow, these mag-pressure rounds could make it into one of my 38's - stranger things have happened. But even if your 686 (I have three 686's, btw) was my only gun, I still wouldn't do it. If someone else got ahold of this ammo (even if they stole it), I could be held liable - stranger things have happened. And if anybody thinks that's legally preposterous, they obviously don't live in California.
 
I've got nothing to say that hasn't been said, about it being a bad idea. It's just not right.

If you are going to be loading plus pressure loads, let's be Serious, failing to load them in +p marked brass can cause you Serious harm or trouble. If anyone accidentally puts their hands on your experimental loads and is harmed, you, right then and there will be up a creek with criminal negligence charges. You will have put dangerous products, with mislabeled and misleading informed on the individual articles, in the hands of unknowing people, no matter how they acquired these cartridges that are not properly labeled.

You may never find yourself in this situation but you shouldn't place yourself and others at risk. When you're gone, and your kids put your ammo out at the estate sale, there will always be someone who buys them and uses them
 
The "fear of civil suit" argument simply -HAS- to be the leading chicken-little scourge of gun forums. It is unsubstantiated CRAP and it is irrationally tiresome.

Can somebody sue somebody? YES! Does this happen over handloads that we all know are not legal for sale in the first place?!?!

SHOW ME.

OP, definitely don't make this ammo. I have heard it will cause your gums to recede and it was also cause unruly growth of both nose & ear hair. I'm telling you, it will happen.
 
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