A Very Curious Webley, Indeed...

H

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
On the .45 Acp revolver thread, we got to talking about Webleys. I have a rather curious Webley, maybe someone can help me fill in some of the details of it's story.

One of my Webleys is a Mark IV, built between 1913 and 1915. It's stamped 'England' everywhere, and it's covered with broad arrows and British proof marks, including the "NP" of nitro proofing. It has had the cylinder modified to take .45 ACP in clips.

At some point someone milled off the front sight and silver-soldered on this hand-crafted rib, with a more conventional, American style blade front sight pinned into a slot cut in the top of the rib. The barrel is 4" long. The cylinder is clearance-cut for auto-rim ammo, so it will also run full-moons. The rear sight was filled and re-cut to a square notch for a regular sight picture instead of the English "notch in a bowl" set-up.

The gun shoots where it looks at 40 yds. with lead bullet reloads with 230 grn moly-coated RNL's. I try not to run jacketed bullets because of the ancient metallurgy.

I think this gun was converted a long time ago. Still tight, no slop, no peening. I personally have put about five hundred rounds through it. All in all, a very mild shooter, much nicer than my Sellout & Worthless M1917, which has snappy recoil.

Interestingly, there are what look like screw marks in the topstap, four on each side, equally spaced, like this gun wore a scope-mount, or something.

Also, I discovered holes in the barrel IN THE BORE. One is about a half inch from the muzzle, the other one's about an inch from the forcing cone. they're about an eightth of an inch in diameter. There's no burrs or any thing like that around them. They're in the top of the bore, under the home-made rib. I have no clue about them but they don't interfere with the gun's function.

Mind you, I did take that barrel OFF.

It's stamped 'W.M. Pope' on the frame, and under the grip panels, along with the word 'England'.

The rib was hand-made. It's got file marks on it, and it's a bit lopsided.

Interesting side point: I slapped a WWII era Mark VI barrel onto the Mark IV gun to give it a six inch barrel. It dropped right in with no fitting, tight and beautiful. Got the barrel from Springfield Sporters for all of thirty bucks, brand new surplus. It's parkerized. Not bad for thirty years difference in manufacture. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Still shoots great, no appreciable wear.

Anyone know who this W.M Pope is? Did he import guns in the twenties? The name is familiar, somehow...

Note; I have read here and lots of other places that Webleys should be run with lower-pressure reloads, as the .455 Webley is a milder load (260 grn. RNL @ 650 fps.) than the .45 ACP.

That being said, my gun has digested a lot of .45 ACP with no quibbles. I plan to keep running those lead-bullet reloads, it seems to like them.

A very nice gun, overall. Any answers to these curiosities, folks?

Thanks for your help!
 
OK, let's see where to begin. I have not been able to find anything on a "W M Pope". (The great barrel maker was H.M. Pope, and he almost never worked on handguns.)

An "England" mark was sometimes put on in that country to indicate the origin on export items; it was also put on when items were imported into the U.S., also to indicate country of origin. So two such markings would not be impossible.

The broad arrows indicate British military ownership; the revolver was probably made originally on a military contract. The commercial NP proofs would have been added when it was sold by the military as surplus.

The gun, of course, has been heavily reworked, possibly more than once. The cylinder shortening to use .45ACP was probably done when the gun was imported (1950's?), but the rest of the work could have been done in England or here if it is consistent with American practice.

The holes in the barrel are probably rib screw holes that went all the way through, not a sign of careful craftsmanship. I doubt they will cause any problem but if rust starts in them, the pressure could eventually blow the screws out.

I would stick with the lead bullet loads, and you might want to keep the Mk VI barrel on there as it doesn't have any extraneous holes.

BTW, you have to use moon clips with .45ACP cases, since there is no sharp in the chamber to support the case mouth as there is in the S&W 1917.

A note on British imports. Most people think the imports from England in the 1950's were of arms shipped to England for military use or Lend Lease items. But in that time frame, England had several "keep England safe - turn in your gun" campaigns. The guns were bought by American importers (today they would be destroyed) so many thousands of British civilian guns, including beautiful flint and percussion pistols, were brought in (and promptly scarfed up by owners of the import companies).

HTH

Jim
 
Thanks for the info.:) All the numbers on this gun match (frame, barrel, cylinder) so if it was re-worked, it kept all of it's pieces.

Right. Harry Pope. Couldn't think of his name for the life of me. No wonder it sounds familiar.

50's huh? Wasn't there a string of imports after WWI? All kinds of folks were buying european surplus guns from importers on the east coast, during the "Golden era" of mail-order gun sales. I don't know, I haven't read that story for years, so I probably mixed up my facts.

I was pretty sure 'England' was an import stamp, and that the broad arrows (stamped on all small parts, inside and out) were military accceptance marks. Thanks for confirmation.

The rib is silver soldered in place, I suspect it's not going anywhere. But the six-incher stays on, as I have a soft spot for long-barreled guns. I think the rib's an add-on after the gun came here, as the workmanship is rather crude, albeit functional. The machine work on the cylinder is rough, too.

Lead bullets it is, either in ACP cases or Auto-rims. I guess Auto-rim clearance would point at post-WWII modification.

I have a Mark 1 that has only the outer diameter faced off to clear half-moon clips. In a pinch, that gun oughta still run .455's, if I can ever find some. 'Acourse, that gun is well over one hundred years old, so I mostly don't shoot it. Still nice and tight, solid mechanism and good lock-up. They sure knew how to build 'em then. It's got nitro proofs, but no arrows or import marks.

Thanks again, here's hoping someone knows who Mr. W.M. Pope really is.

On a side note I have, as a companion piece, a Lee- Enfield #4 MK 1*, built by Savage in 1942, and stamped "U.S. PROPERTY" on the receiver. I wonder how it got back here...:) :) :)
 
That Savage No 4 may never have left.
As I understand it by the time Savage got going good the Brits had production up to the point they did not need them all. There was said to be some use of .303s here for training.
A close look at markings and a REAL milsurp scholar would help.
 
There was no big import of surplus guns after WWI except for Lugers and Mauser rifles reworked to "sporters" in Germany. The big days of gun import and mail order sales was after WWII; it began in the 1950's and existed up to the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Jim
 
Hand_Rifle_Guy-was in a local gunshop two years ago and guy had Webley hanging on the wall. Thought it was a Mark IV (extremely limited Webley knowledge) and bargained him down in price because someone had apparently carved a huge arrow on the top strap. Got it for $90. Turned out to be a Mark I with the cylinder trimmed for 45 AR.

While i don't shoot it often, a hardcast .452 200 gn lrnf driven to about 650 fps shoots right to elevation at 25 yds and is very accurate.

The cylinder mouths appear to be less than .450 on the Mark I and Mark VI.
 
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