The following is being cross-posted from SIG-L. Marv Stenhammer, a well-known former black operative, raconteur and who runs the website http://www.gunnery.net, for the uninitiated, was commenting on larger rounds being better stoppers. Since that war wages over here frequently, I thought it would be not only informational but entertaining to read Marv's response to "bigger is better". (BTW, his spelling hasn't improved, I ran it through a spell checker. 
Enjoy:
"I realize the 40/357/45 are better stoppers, but that doesn't mean I (you?) will stop better with them."
I agree with most of your 9mm conclusions, but <you new it was coming> I STRONGLY DISAGREE with the snippet above. I do not want to come off as a jerk, but how many people have you shot? How many people have you seen shot? I have had to shoot and have seen way to many shootings for my own good. <not to mention the good of my soul> Most of that was with 9mm and I can tell you this, no one ever jumps up and says "Nanny Nanny Goo Goo, You should have shot me with a bigger bullet!" Just ain't real life my friends.
Admittedly some people, because of their physiology or more likely there mental state do not know you have just killed them and keep fighting. This is true with all hand gun ammo, so you have to shoot them down, shoot them again and again till the shooting stops. No currently available hand gun ammo produces Hydro Static Shock, like a high power rifle does. Most people killed by gun fire are killed by shock. All of the flying backward 12 feet and seeing their feet fly over there heads from a pistol wound are only more Hollywood bullsnot. Most people slump into a bleeding nasty mess of X-human within a foot of where they were standing, the exception being moving objects, i.e. people on the move keep moving, thanks to Newton's "Principia Mathmatica" and all that Einstein stuff. <Yes I assuredly spelled that wrong.> Got bailed out of Catholic School by the Public School Football Coaches way too soon!
This old pooh pooh on the 9mm is just incorrect. It is regurgitated by uninformed, under informed arm chair commandos and wannabe's . Using information that was only partially valid 25 years ago. The design intent of the 9mm Parabellum (which after all means "For War") was to vampire hole the first guy with a fast moving FMJ, and then keep on going so you may get a multiple target hit on the next guy on the battle field. The intent and result was to wound the enemy so that it took 2 or 3 guys to evac him but even then with a COM hit they were still DRT. [Dead Right There]. {COM is Center of Mass for the new folks}. Modern 9mm is just as effective as the bruisers and I say normally more effective because of it's inherent accuracy and critical controllability with fast accurate follow up shots.
After all people, who is dumb enough to shoot one shot and then stop, wait and watch if the BG goes down. Not to be gross or insensitive, but I have put two or three holes in almost every one I have every shot and most of the 2nd and 3rd rounds went into a slumping mass of something that use to be a human on it's way to the deck. My best "OSS" [one shot stop] with the exception of some sniper shots, was with a Walther PPK/S in .380 with an 85 grain FMJ. I flinched, closed my eyes a bit, ducked and moved [read ran] laterally as we both drew and shot at each other form about 20 feet away and when I looked up after my first and only shot he was an XTBG and just a foot note in history.
The best thing you can do is forget about all this OSS BS and shoot them down. Keep shooting until all threats are eliminated or in full retreat. The added rounds you get off will add to your effectiveness and hit probability, just on the firepower and suppressive fire principles alone. You shoot and they will flinch and duck, it is only human nature.
In conclusion <No I am not done yet> The best gun you can have is the one you can handle best with a round you can shoot the best and every one of the regular run of the mill "normal human" type shooters I know has always done better with 9mm in real life [read stress fire] and in pseudo realistic scenarios as well as when just plinking.
- You MUST Use Mindset, Tactics and Shot Placement and Shoot them DOWN! -
Extra for experts <my god is he still going> 2000 times more people have been killed or dropped by 9mm than by any other pistol cartridge. Do you think all the Zillion Dollar Armies of the world spend all that dough on a round that is weak and ineffective? No way.
This part is really serious [read I Just have to add some trash talk] Don't let the bandwagon riding small dicked, insecure, we got big bullets to make up for our small weenies try to tell you otherwise. If you are not man/woman/human enough to carry a 9mm, than your just not man enough. All the "Big Bore Ego Crutches" and the Special ++++PPP+++ Able to kill them deader than dead marketing hype will not save your life or that of your family in a real non-colorized, guts in you hair, bodies on the carpet, blood on your blue suede shoes, gross, ugly and disgusting gun fight. So buy a gun that works for you and 9mm are still the best for 95% of the gun owners out there.
Please Remember This: <read Now he has really lost it!> When the "Cult of Colt" types start to rag you and you cute little gun, just ask them to go down range and take some 9 Mike Mike to validate the proof of their firm beliefs. I have been using that line for years and as of yet, I have had no takers.
Quote of the day: Who said? "When your big ugly 911 .45 ACP monster killing gun is in open battery recoil, I just put my third round of 9mm through you collapsing and pathetic ass."
Hell, guys that was me
But you knew that one.
Marv
[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited January 05, 2000).]
Enjoy:
"I realize the 40/357/45 are better stoppers, but that doesn't mean I (you?) will stop better with them."
I agree with most of your 9mm conclusions, but <you new it was coming> I STRONGLY DISAGREE with the snippet above. I do not want to come off as a jerk, but how many people have you shot? How many people have you seen shot? I have had to shoot and have seen way to many shootings for my own good. <not to mention the good of my soul> Most of that was with 9mm and I can tell you this, no one ever jumps up and says "Nanny Nanny Goo Goo, You should have shot me with a bigger bullet!" Just ain't real life my friends.
Admittedly some people, because of their physiology or more likely there mental state do not know you have just killed them and keep fighting. This is true with all hand gun ammo, so you have to shoot them down, shoot them again and again till the shooting stops. No currently available hand gun ammo produces Hydro Static Shock, like a high power rifle does. Most people killed by gun fire are killed by shock. All of the flying backward 12 feet and seeing their feet fly over there heads from a pistol wound are only more Hollywood bullsnot. Most people slump into a bleeding nasty mess of X-human within a foot of where they were standing, the exception being moving objects, i.e. people on the move keep moving, thanks to Newton's "Principia Mathmatica" and all that Einstein stuff. <Yes I assuredly spelled that wrong.> Got bailed out of Catholic School by the Public School Football Coaches way too soon!
This old pooh pooh on the 9mm is just incorrect. It is regurgitated by uninformed, under informed arm chair commandos and wannabe's . Using information that was only partially valid 25 years ago. The design intent of the 9mm Parabellum (which after all means "For War") was to vampire hole the first guy with a fast moving FMJ, and then keep on going so you may get a multiple target hit on the next guy on the battle field. The intent and result was to wound the enemy so that it took 2 or 3 guys to evac him but even then with a COM hit they were still DRT. [Dead Right There]. {COM is Center of Mass for the new folks}. Modern 9mm is just as effective as the bruisers and I say normally more effective because of it's inherent accuracy and critical controllability with fast accurate follow up shots.
After all people, who is dumb enough to shoot one shot and then stop, wait and watch if the BG goes down. Not to be gross or insensitive, but I have put two or three holes in almost every one I have every shot and most of the 2nd and 3rd rounds went into a slumping mass of something that use to be a human on it's way to the deck. My best "OSS" [one shot stop] with the exception of some sniper shots, was with a Walther PPK/S in .380 with an 85 grain FMJ. I flinched, closed my eyes a bit, ducked and moved [read ran] laterally as we both drew and shot at each other form about 20 feet away and when I looked up after my first and only shot he was an XTBG and just a foot note in history.
The best thing you can do is forget about all this OSS BS and shoot them down. Keep shooting until all threats are eliminated or in full retreat. The added rounds you get off will add to your effectiveness and hit probability, just on the firepower and suppressive fire principles alone. You shoot and they will flinch and duck, it is only human nature.
In conclusion <No I am not done yet> The best gun you can have is the one you can handle best with a round you can shoot the best and every one of the regular run of the mill "normal human" type shooters I know has always done better with 9mm in real life [read stress fire] and in pseudo realistic scenarios as well as when just plinking.
- You MUST Use Mindset, Tactics and Shot Placement and Shoot them DOWN! -
Extra for experts <my god is he still going> 2000 times more people have been killed or dropped by 9mm than by any other pistol cartridge. Do you think all the Zillion Dollar Armies of the world spend all that dough on a round that is weak and ineffective? No way.
This part is really serious [read I Just have to add some trash talk] Don't let the bandwagon riding small dicked, insecure, we got big bullets to make up for our small weenies try to tell you otherwise. If you are not man/woman/human enough to carry a 9mm, than your just not man enough. All the "Big Bore Ego Crutches" and the Special ++++PPP+++ Able to kill them deader than dead marketing hype will not save your life or that of your family in a real non-colorized, guts in you hair, bodies on the carpet, blood on your blue suede shoes, gross, ugly and disgusting gun fight. So buy a gun that works for you and 9mm are still the best for 95% of the gun owners out there.
Please Remember This: <read Now he has really lost it!> When the "Cult of Colt" types start to rag you and you cute little gun, just ask them to go down range and take some 9 Mike Mike to validate the proof of their firm beliefs. I have been using that line for years and as of yet, I have had no takers.
Quote of the day: Who said? "When your big ugly 911 .45 ACP monster killing gun is in open battery recoil, I just put my third round of 9mm through you collapsing and pathetic ass."
Hell, guys that was me
But you knew that one.Marv
[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited January 05, 2000).]
