A story for the nubees.

W

Wild Bill Bucks

New member
About ten years ago, I found myself in a camp with 3 guys that I did not know. At that time we were all carrying side locks. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to their guns the night before season started as we were playing dominos and having a good time getting to know one another.

The next morning we all got up, and they started to load the rifles, and I noticed that they were using 30.06 brass, with a pencil eraser on top, for quick loaders. This seemed rather odd to me, but not knowing them very well, I didn't say much.

After we all got loaded, I asked them how many grains of powder that the 30.06 shell hold, and they said " Hell I don't know, but we figured if it is enough powder to shoot a 30.06 with, then it would probably work with these rifles":eek:

Later that evening I had shot a Buck, and when I got back to the cabin everyone was amazed at the hole my bullet had made. They seemed to be amazed at the bullet passing through the deer. They told me that they hardly ever got a "Through and Through" shot.

I got my powder box out of the truck and started getting my patchs out to start cleaning my rifle, and one of them said "What you doing".
I said I'm going to clean my barrel out and get ready for tommorrows hunt. They all started laughing, and it was that moment I realized, that these guys didn't have a clue. One guy told me that his dad gave him his old rifle about 4 years ago, and he had never cleaned it. The other two guys thought that the barrel was self cleaning, as the bullet going down the barrel would clean all the residue out when you shot it.

If these guys hadn't been shooting a patch and ball, they would have probably blown their own head off by now.

I cleaned my rifle out, as they watched very carefully, and explained to them all I knew about powder hunting. Don't get me wrong guys, I'm no Expert on the subject, but these guys were listening like I was God.

When I showed them the patch I brought out of the barrel they were amazed. They couldn't beleive there was that much nasty after only one shot. When I poured out 100 grains of powder on a piece of paper, and poured one of their 30.06 loads next to it, they couldn't believe the difference.

We brushed and patched for nearly 2 hours on their rifles, and NEVER got all the crude out of their barrels.

After talking for a while I found out that they were limiting their shots to about 30 yards, because that was about as good as their guns would shoot. When I told them that they should be able to shoot at least 100 yards, I thought they were going to call me a liar.

These guys were all related and started powder hunting at the same time, and really didn't have anyone to talk to about it, so they did everything by trial and error.

The point I'm trying to make, is that if you are new to the sport, find someone who knows what they are doing, and get started right. These guys had wasted 4 years, and no telling how many wounded animals, trying to deer hunt.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing something, and anyone who tells you they just bought it off the shelf and became an expert is full of crap.
There is a lot more to the sport than just buying your gun and shooting.
Don't be embarrassed to ask questions, it's the only way to find out, and the un-asked question might just cost you or your buddy their life.:)
 
Good story and better advice. I have run into people who knew it all, as we all have:rolleyes:. Never anyone that was as ignorant of the procedures for shooting black powder as in this story though. When you stated
After we all got loaded, I asked them how many grains of powder that the 30.06 shell hold, and they said " Hell I don't know, but we figured if it is enough powder to shoot a 30.06 with, then it would probably work with these rifles"
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I just knew you were going to say they were using smokeless powder:eek:. Thank God they weren't.
 
ED,

Last year I was standing at the counter of my local Wally World, and watched two guys buy two muzzleloader KITS. This was at 7:00 in the evening, the night before powder season started. They were asking the cashier how much powder they needed and what kind of bullets to shoot. They were actually going to go home and put these kits together, and go hunting the next morning.:eek:

Luckily they told him where they intended to hunt, so I could get as far away from them as possible the next morning.:D
 
NAA Companion Siight and Barrel Problem

I just got mine today and the barrel/sights are off to the left. Is this a common problem or should I try and get a new gun?
 
That happens everywhere,
Here in Minnesota, the DNR started a new thing where if you are unsuccessful during regular rifle season and your tag is unused, you can return it to any agent and buy the 3 season license. you have to pay the difference in price and get 2 tags with it and your good to go. Lots of folks go and buy a muzzle loader and head for the woodlot the next day. It is a shame, but also shame on Minnesota DNR, as they are just plane greedy. looking for that extra $$$.

I just buy the 3 season from the start and carry the smoke pole that much longer.
 
pisa;

New out of the box, Very common for the sights to be off. What did you buy?

Also with any firearm the velocity can change things, Bullet too.

Once you find your load and have your gun zero'ed for it stick with it.
 
I have to agree, a good story & great advice.

I have been shooting Archery & Muzzle loading firearms since 1978 & I will even learn a new trick every once in a while that helps me improve my score or handling of either "for instance when I tried a release for the first time in 1998 for my compound bow & I've never turned back cept for my recurve :D" but I'm now going to hunt this year with a smoke pole for the first time in 15 years so picking out an inexpensive inline & learning about Saboted bullets is going to be a new experience for me...

Don't get me wrong, I have a few good side lock rifles.
Custom built .54 Hawken that my grandfather built in 1955.
Reproduction of a Remington Zouave .58 rifle, that I've had for almost 25 years.
Both are fine weapons but ofcorse the Hawken is a keepsake from my grandfather & I think a .577 bullet is just a bit over kill for Deer.
 
I went to the muzzleloading hunt on Cumberland Island, Georgia.

We were sitting around the camp the night before the hunt.
A guy walked up to me and was admiring my Tennessee Mountain Rifle.
He said, "You built that? You must know a lot about muzzleloaders."

I must admit, it is a beautiful rifle.
The guy said he had just bought his CVA Hawken two days earlier, at Walmart, and hadn't had time to fire it yet.
He wanted me to teach him how to shoot a muzzleloader.


Well, if someone came to me at the range, a month before the hunt, with that request, he would be in luck!
I would meet him once a week for 3 weeks and he would be in pretty good shape.
But, we weren't allowed to take target practice. This guy was a day late and a dollar short, there was no way I was going to get him proficient.
I took a pass on helping this guy.

I thought that was bad, but the next day was worse.

Back at camp after the morning hunt, someone asked a guy where his hog was, since he had made several shots.
The guy said, "I fired 11 times but I missed. Every time I fired the hog or deer just ran off."
He made no attempt to blood trail the game.

I learned, to my dismay, that the Cumberland hunt was where the dumb newbies congregated.

I had had enough. I packed my gear and caught the noon ferry for the mainland. I figured I was way ahead of the game, to get off the island without getting shot. Never went back to the Cumberland Island hunt.
 
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One of the ranges I go to, is a public range and when I take a couple of my SideLocks, I never fail to draw attention and before you know it I'm conducting a mini-class. I wind up doing just as much teaching as shooting. All too often you can see the "light" come on and comments like; I now see why you do that or I understand". There are a lot of folks out there who own M/L's but haven't a clue what to do with them. When I first started this great adventure, I learned from an old Blacksmith who was a fantastic teacher. Then I got into Buckskinning and was surprised at all the bad habits out there, especially from that community. Later got certified by the NMLRA and I said; I now see why you do that or I understand". I now teach during Hunter Safety Classes and there are always other instructors who will gladly teach or assist those who might have problems or questions. We are all here to promote and serve.


Be Safe !!!
 
since this seams to "class in session" i have a few questions...

a little story behind me, i collect old iver johnsons, h&r, u.s. revolver co., etc. i just got my 2nd black powder revolver and have a single shot muzzle loader derringer .22 on the way. now here are my questions
1. can i use .45 sabots in a remmy 1858?
2. generally how long can i keep them loaded before the powder goes bad?
3. the .22 calls for 15 grains powder and 45 grain ball, can i use 2 20 grain lead .22 bb's?
4. since pyrodex is not black powder is it corrosive? or as corrosive?
5. instead of tallow or lard/crisco, could i use wax to seal the cylinders?
6. do wonder wads stop chain fires alone?

thats all i can think of off the top of my head right now, i'm sure i'll have a bunch more down the line... thanx!
 
Sabots won't work in a cap and ball revolver.
Why use expensive sabots and revolver bullets, when round balls work great and are cheap?

I have kept a cap and ball revolver loaded for 3 years and it fired fine, full power, all 5 cylinders. Kept in a drawer in the humid NC mountains. Just a round ball, no wax or grease sealing the cylinder or the cap.

A bb may not work. It certainly would not work well in a cap and ball revolver, the slug needs to be lead.

Pyrodex is not as corrrosive as black powder, it is more corrosive. There is no non corrosive bp sub.

I don't use anything to seal the cylinders and I have never had a chain fire.
 
Suzukibruce: I'm no expert. I've only been shooting BP for three years, everything I've learned, I learned from various forums and from experimenting with stuff I read about on the forums, but I think I can answer these questions correctly. :)

1. can i use .45 sabots in a remmy 1858?
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Sabots are designed for rifles, they use bullets that are smaller in diameter than balls and conicals. You need the long barrel to give the sabot time enough to give the bullet it's spin so it can shed the sabot. The bullets they use are also heavier than the traditional balls and conicals. You could try it with a light load, but I doubt it would be accurate.

2. generally how long can i keep them loaded before the powder goes bad?
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As long as the nipple is covered well to keep out moisture, forever. I read about a guy who was given a repro Colt Navy from the 60's or 70's that was loaded (but uncapped). He asked everyone how to unload it, they said cap it up and shoot it. Most people don't keep their pistols loaded more than a few months, I've kept mine loaded for 2 or 3 and it's shot okay with our heat and humidity. (85%, 105 degrees Mississippi summer). My AC went out last June.:))

3. the .22 calls for 15 grains powder and 45 grain ball, can i use 2 20 grain lead .22 bb's?
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Guys talk about loading double balls in their revolvers all the time. 40 grains worth of ball shouldn't hurt if it's a modern gun. If it's that .22 Derringer I saw in another thread, a .22 lead BB (like the Gamo BB's Cabela's sell for their 209 single shot) will work fine with a .010" patch. The NAA mini revolver calls for .22 conicals. Ramming the BB's in the bore might size them tight enough without the patch, don't know till you try, but it won't hurt it.

4. since pyrodex is not black powder is it corrosive? or as corrosive?
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BP isn't actually corrosive, it's hygroscopic, it absorbs humidity and the water causes rust in the bore if you don't wipe it out after shooting. You don't have to run home right away and clean your pistol, but a wipe down with a moist rag at the range after shooting won't hurt. Lots of guys use a spray bottle of Windex or water to rinse off the debris from their cylinders and frame and run a moist patch or swab between target runs until they can get home and clean their pistols properly with a good soak. With a '58 Remington, you want to wipe off the cylinder pin regularly, mine gets pretty gummy after shooting a few cylinders. I haven't used real BP so far, just Hodgdon 777, but it and Pyrodex act the same way. They call for water to wash them, they will suck the moisture out of the air and cause rust, too. Even in stainless guns.

5. instead of tallow or lard/crisco, could i use wax to seal the cylinders?
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The vast majority of cap and ball shooters agree, if you get a good solid lead ring, your cylinder is already sealed. The lube on top of the bullet prevents leading and helps keep the fouling soft and easy to clean out.

I make grease pills using Gatafeo's lube recipe. 2 parts paraffin, 2 parts tallow(I use lard, it's cheaper and the same thing except from a cow), and 1 part beeswax. The paraffin provides the grit to wipe down the bore, the tallow softens the fouling, and the beeswax keeps it from melting and running. You can punch out 5/8" or .45" wads and soak them in the melted lube and make lubed wads you load between the bullet and the powder and skip sealing the cylinder. A spark can't go past a tight ball and a tight lubed wad. From what I've read and my personal experience, 777 is self lubricating, it gets greasy on it's own without any lube. If I was using real BP, I would use the grease pills in addition to the wads.

6. do wonder wads stop chain fires alone?
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See the answer above. Some people believe that chainfires are caused by a missing or loose cap. I'm starting to believe the school of thought that it's from miscast or too small a ball. Caps fall off all the time, I've been lucky so far, but the theory is, there's no way a spark can travel from under the cap that's being crushed against the nipple under the hammer and make two 90 degree turns to go down the flashhole of the nipple next to it. They do happen, but they're so rare, it's hard to get good data as to why they happened. I think I've read about it happening directly to only 2 people at the most on the forums out of thousands of shooters.
 
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1. Both wittzo and simonkenton are right on this one. Sabots are not used in bp revolvers.

2. Again, both are correct. The answer is indefinitely. However...why? I really don't understand how anyone can NOT practice regularly, and in so doing keep the load fresh. If you're going to be an accurate, proficient shooter, you need to practice with the gun you intend to use. It just amazes me that people would load a gun and not fire it for an extended period of time. If you're going to use it, practice with it to become good enough and stay good enough to use it, and if you're not going to use it, don't load it.

3. Double ball loads are not unusual. Double powder and ball loads are no-no's.

4. Unburned black powder or substitute black powder is not corrosive. It is, as wittzo said, hygroscopic, and can absorb water. If the water stays absorbed, it's not a problem, but it won't; at some point the temperature will drop and it will re-condense as water, and now you've got a problem if it's in your gun. Real black powder that has been exposed to moisture can be dried out and used without loss of performance. Substitute black powders are reputed to lose power if moistened and then dried out; I've never tested it, however. As for the combustion byproducts - both real black powder and Pyrodex byproducts contain corrosive salts that will cause rust. 777 does also, but I've had occasion to leave a barrel exposed to burned 777 uncleaned for several days without significant rust forming. I personally believe the byproducts of 777 are less corrosive than those of real black powder or Pyrodex. However, why test it? Just clean your guns. Problem solved.

5. Yes, but that seems to me to be more difficult. And wax will not provide the same benefit as grease in keeping the fouling soft.

6. I don't know why the black powder community seems to need to split up into two camps about where a chain fire originates from. The real answer is that it can happen from either end of the cylinder. It is true that sparks can't make the double right turns it would take to get to the powder from the back end, but it isn't sparks that cause chain fires, it's hot combustion gasses. And those gasses can find their way through any path regardless of how it twists and turns. So, to avoid chain fires, use a proper fitting cap AND proper fitting balls. Period. That way you've got both ends covered and it doesn't matter which end you BELIEVE they start from. Now, as for Wonder Wads. They're good insurance against a chain fire starting from the front of the cylinder, but a proper fitting ball is better. The Wonder Wad does have the benefit of lubrication, which will help keep fouling soft and keep the gun from binding up sooner.
 
4. since pyrodex is not black powder is it corrosive? or as corrosive?
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All points pretty much answered and in good fashion. Can add just a bit more to #4 and have to agree that unfired, it is not corrosive. Once had to pull a load on a rifle that was loaded for three years with Pyrodex. No corrosion on any part of the shot string and for the most part, just some discoloration. I then ignited the Pyrodex and it lit off just fine. Now, I have to make sure my words are "Calibrated" properly. ... :cool:
Bp and Pyrodex, contain sulphur and once ignited, that is when the problems begin. Both are classified as a mixture of three basic components. One of the ignition by-product is Salts. I have read that the products of the ignition process is complex and not fully understood by chemists. Yes, Pyrodex is just as corrosive as BP after ignition and that is why water or water based, is a prefered cleaner. 777 as well as others, do not contain sulphur but whatever you use, clean as soon as possible. I do a first wash in the field with Ballistol and take it home for a detailed cleaning.

Be Safe !!!
 
If I had gold to give away I wouldn't be collecting soda bottles to get money for powder....:D

But, if I had one, you'd get it.;)
 
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