A somber correlation: drugs & killers

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Dwight55

New member
I'm not a historian, . . . don't have access to a "lot" of facts and figures, . . . but a friend emailed this to me, . . . and it sure would add a lot of insight into the minds of these shooters if it is all correct:


Rx drugs..... not guns

What
Drug
Date
Where
Additional

School Shooting
Prozac WITHDRAWAL 2008-02-15 Illinois ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically
School Shooting
Prozac Antidepressant 2005-03-24 Minnesota **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage
School Shooting
Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2001-03-10 Pennsylvania **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School
School Shooting
Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med 2011-07-11 Alabama **14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student
School Shooting
Zoloft Antidepressant 1995-10-12 South Carolina **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself
School Shooting
Med For Depression 2009-03-13 Germany **16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression
School Hostage Situation
Med For Depression 2010-12-15 France **17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage
School Shooting Plot
Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL 2008-08-28 Texas **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack
School Shooting
Anafranil Antidepressant 1988-05-20 Illinois **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self
School Shooting
Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded
School Stabbings
Antidepressants 2001-06-09 Japan **Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med
School Shooting
Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured
School Stabbing
Med For Depression 2011-10-25 Washington **Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition
School Shooting
Antidepressant 2006-09-30 Colorado **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self
School Machete Attack
Med for Depression 2001-09-26 Pennsylvania **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School
School Shooting Related
Luvox 1993-07-23 Florida **Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported
School Hostage Situation
Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2009-11-09 New York **Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage
School Shooting
Antidepressants 1992-09-20 Texas **Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School
School Shooting
SSRI 2010-02-19 Finland **On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself
School Shooting Threat
Med for Depression* 2004-10-19 New Jersey **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School
School Shooting
Antidepressant? 2007-04-18 Virginia **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech
School Shooting
Antidepressant? 2002-01-17 Virginia **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School
School Incident/Bizarre
Zoloft* 2010-08-22 Australia **School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft
School/Assault
Antidepressant 2009-11-04 California **School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med
School Shooting
Prozac Antidepressant 1992-01-30 Michigan **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School
School Shooting Threats
Celexa Antidepressant 2010-01-25 Virginia **Senior in High School Theatens to Kill 4 Classmates: Facebook Involved: Bail Denied
School Violence/Murder
Antidepressants* 1998-05-04 New York **Sheriff's Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School
School Knifing/Murder
Meds For Depression & ADHD 2010-04-28 Massachusetts **Sixteen Year Old Kills 15 Year Old in High School Bathroom in Sept. 2009
School Stabbing
Wellbutrin 2006-12-04 Indiana **Stabbing by 17 Year Old At High School: Charged with Attempted Murder
School Threat
Antidepressants 2007-04-23 Mississippi **Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet
School Suspension
Lexapro Antidepressant 2007-07-28 Arkansas **Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro
School Shooting
Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-11-07 Finland **Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland
School Shooting
Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2004-02-09 New York **Student Shoots Teacher in Leg at School
School Threat
Prozac Antidepressant 2008-01-25 Washington **Student Takes Loaded Shotgun & 3 Rifles to School Parking Lot: Plans Suicide
School Shooting Plot
Med For Depression 1998-12-01 Wisconsin **Teen Accused of Plotting to Gun Down Students at School
School/Assault
Zoloft Antidepressant 2006-02-15 Tennessee **Teen Attacks Teacher at School
School Shooting Threat
Antidepressant 1999-04-16 Idaho **Teen Fires Gun in School
School Hostage Situation
Paxil & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-15 Washington **Teen Holds Classmates Hostage with a Gun
School Hostage Situation
Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2006-11-28 North Carolina **Teen Holds Teacher & Student Hostage with Gun
School Knife Attack
Med for Depression 2006-12-06 Indiana **Teen Knife Attacks Fellow Student
School Massacre Plot
Prozac Withdrawal 2011-02-23 Virginia **Teen Sentenced to 12 Years in Prison For Columbine Style Plot
School Shooting
Celexa & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-19 California **Teen Shoots at Classmates in School
School Shooting
Celexa Antidepressant 2006-08-30 North Carolina **Teen Shoots at Two Students: Kills his Father: Celexa Found Among his Personal Effects
School Shooting
Meds For Depression & ADHD 2011-03-18 South Carolina **Teen Shoots School Official: Pipe Bombs Found in Backpack
School Shooting Threat
Antidepressant 2003-05-31 Michigan **Teen Threatens School Shooting: Charge is Terrorism
School Stand-Off
Zoloft Antidepressant 1998-04-13 Idaho **Teen [14 Years Old] in School Holds Police At Bay: Fires Shots
School Shooting
Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-10-12 Ohio **Teen [14 Years Old] School Shooter Possibly on Antidepressants or In Withdrawal
School Threat
Antidepressants 2008-03-20 Indiana **Teen [16 Years Old] Brings Gun to School: There Is a Lockdown
School Suicide/Lockdown
Med For Depression 2008-02-20 Idaho **Teen [16 Years Old] Kills Self at High School: Lockdown by Police
School Threats
Prozac Antidepressant 1999-10-19 Florida **Teen [16 Years Old] Threatens Classmates With Knife & Fake Explosives
School Stabbing
Med For Depression 2008-02-29 Texas **Teen [17 Year Old GIRL] Stabs Friend & Principal at High School
School Hostage Situation
Prozac/ Paxil Antidepressants 2001-01-18 California **Teen [17 Years Old] Takes Girl Hostage at School: He is Killed by Police
School Knife Attack
Treatment For Depression & Strattera 2009-03-10 Belgium **Three Dead in School Day Care: Two Children & a Caregiver: Happened Jan 23, 2009
School Shooting Plot
Antidepressants 2009-09-22 England **Two English School Boys Plot to Blow Up High School
School Arson Incidents
Paxil 2002-04-12 Michigan **Unusual Personality Change on Paxil Caused 15 Year Old to Set Fires inside High School
School Bomb Threat
Med For Depression 2009-06-29 Australia **Vexed Father Makes Bomb Threat Against Elementary School
School Violence
Antidepressant 2005-11-19 Arizona **Violent 8 Year Old GIRL Handcuffed by Police at School
School Violence
Celexa Antidepressant 2002-01-23 Florida **Violent 8 Year-Old Boy Arrested At School
School Threat/Lockdown
Lexapro* 2008-04-18 California **Violent High School Student Shot to Death on Campus by Police
School / Child Endangerment
Antidepressants 2008-02-27 Canada **Wacky School Bus Driver Goes Berserk: Also Involved Painkillers
School Violence
Paxil 2004-10-23 Washington DC **Young Boy, 10 Year Old, Has Violent Incidents at School
School Threat
Wellbutrin Antidepressant 2007-04-24 Tennessee **Young Boy, 12, Threatens to Shoot Others at School
School Hostage Situation
Med for Depression 2006-03-09 France **Young Ex-Teacher Holds 21 Students Hostage
School Shooting/Suicide
Celexa 2002-10-07 Texas **Young Girl [13 Years Old] Kills Self at School With a Gun
School Hostage Situation
Paxil 2001-10-12 North Carolina **Young Man Holds Three People Hostage in Duke University President's Office
School Murder Attempt
Med For Depression 1995-03-04 California **Young Woman Deliberately Hits 3 Kids with Her Car at Elementary School: Laughed During Attack

May God bless,
Dwight
 
I have always wondered this myself. The only reason is: almost 15 years ago I had a friend that was put on Paxil, and he an episode. His mother decided he was "too depressed" so she took him to the Doctors office and told the doctor she had heard about Paxil and wanted her son to try it. Well the doctor is well known in the area for writing LOTS of prescriptions to people for strong,strong pain medicines. After a couple months of taking said Paxil he flipped out. He honestly thought he was the second coming of Jesus(no joke). He got so bad he had to be committed. This was my high school class valedictorian, and straight 4.0 college student. I personally watched his breakdown, I would hate to think what he was capable of at the time. While I am sure there are some that these medications help, there are also others that they hurt.
 
I actually started reading through those, then I scrolled down and saw how long the list was. I would have been here for a while...

I do not take medications of any sort, but I've known a few people who were on meds either for ADHD or depression. It's difficult to say, but some of them are not the kinds of people that should have firearms.

Medications these days are dangerous, I don't know how many times I've heard on tv that they may cause thoughts of suicide or worsen depression. It scares the hell out of me that such meds even exist.

It seems to me that our society has become one that treats symptoms rather than the underlying cause, and doesn't even concern itself with prevention. Not a healthy society.
 
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I don't really know what to make of this.

It seems to me that all of these people had obvious issues already, otherwise they would of not been prescribed medication.

So is the medication causing these violent outbursts, or failing to prevent them?

I tend to think if it was causing them it would happen WAY more often. There are allot of people on these drugs. I think it is a case of the wrong dosage or the wrong medication.

As they say you "practice" medicine, which is frightening when you think about them messing around with your brain.
 
Without more information, much of which may never be available, this correlation is pretty meaningless. Were these people disturbed because of the medication, or were they on medication because they were already disturbed? Did they do what they did because they were over-medicated or because they were under-medicated? How well did they comply with their physicians' prescribed treatments? Without such information, this is a lot like the statistics say you're more likely to be murdered if you own a gun (ignoring the fact that you may own the gun because you're already at higher risk of being murdered) or that you're more likely to die in a hospital (ignoring the fact that you're probably in the hospital because you're already sick).
 
Without more information, much of which may never be available, this correlation is pretty meaningless. Were these people disturbed because of the medication, or were they on medication because they were already disturbed? Did they do what they did because they were over-medicated or because they were under-medicated? How well did they comply with their physicians' prescribed treatments? Without such information, this is a lot like the statistics say you're more likely to be murdered if you own a gun (ignoring the fact that you may own the gun because you're already at higher risk of being murdered) or that you're more likely to die in a hospital (ignoring the fact that you're probably in the hospital because you're already sick).
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Yes, very rational points.

I skimmed the list, but noticed WITHDRAWAL in all caps in a few instances. This seems to indicate they weren't taking their medication, no? Now, a few days of withdrawal can happen, certainly. One of the withdrawals listed is the Columbine incident. Withdrawal from an antidepressant does not last the weeks or months or whatever it took them to plan that. Sorry, not how it works.

Say the list is semi-correct, and all ~50 incidences involved people being treated medically for a mental illness. Wonder what the percentage would be if you take 50 and divide by the millions and millions of people who take similar medications and show marked improvement for their illness. What kind of percentage would that be? The list goes back to '88, so that's what, 25 years? Does anyone comprehend the volume of antidepressant medications that have been consumed in the last 25 years?

How many of them were white males? What correlation does that have? Take the same list but instead of leaving out people who weren't taking medication, leave out the non-white males. Now you have a list consisting of only white males. "A Somber Correlation: White males... Not Guns." I saw an article recently to this effect, on Facebook.

You can make a list that says whatever you want it to say, this is a good example. This is just yet another agenda driven list, going around in emails:rolleyes: that tries to make a bias strictly on emotion. It is the same argument that guns are the problem. Drugs are the problem. Military-style assault-weapons are the problem. White males are the problem. Well, which is it? Everyone seems to have a one-liner solution to a ridiculously complex problem.

I have always wondered this myself. The only reason is: almost 15 years ago I had a friend that was put on Paxil, and he an episode. His mother decided he was "too depressed" so she took him to the Doctors office and told the doctor she had heard about Paxil and wanted her son to try it. Well the doctor is well known in the area for writing LOTS of prescriptions to people for strong,strong pain medicines. After a couple months of taking said Paxil he flipped out. He honestly thought he was the second coming of Jesus(no joke). He got so bad he had to be committed. This was my high school class valedictorian, and straight 4.0 college student. I personally watched his breakdown, I would hate to think what he was capable of at the time. While I am sure there are some that these medications help, there are also others that they hurt.
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What was his diagnosis? Sounds a lot like schizophrenia, develops late adolescence/early adulthood, delusions of grandeur... not a known side effect of Paxil.

I know a guy who was generally "normal" but would have occasional weird episodes. Turns out he had depression and was pretty suicidal. He took the same SSRI Paxil for a few years. Now he is very happy, is married and has kids, and is very stable. He was also a valedictorian with a 4.0, coincidentally
 
He was diagnosed with ADHD and being Bi-Polar. This after a stay in a mental hospital. After getting out, he discontinued use of the medicine. He is not as bad as while on the medication, but he still has issues now. It just seemed as though the medicine "set him off". While I doubt it is even possible. He still has "episodes" where he acts really weird. I just honestly think he hides it better. I just know they pumped him full of all different types of psychotropic drugs during and after his stay in the institution. He doesn't act like the same person though, he honestly acts like a "zombie". I say this because I am not sure what else to call it. He has no emotion or personality anymore. I agree the problems were way deeper, but I do think they misdiagnose people and pump them full of medicine that might not be the best choice..
 
We've got to take responsibility

I'm afraid I may be in the minority here, but we've got to own up. Hear me out.

Individually, and as a society, we must begin to take responsibility for our decisions. I've taken some of these medications. I know how powerful they are. Even so they never forced me to do anything. I chose, and still choose how to act and what to do. I grew up among the video game generation. Violent games never forced my hand at anything. My personal struggles in middle school have never forced me to do anything. The cause of anything I do, say, eat or anything else does not contribute. The only contributing factor is my personal will. I choose my actions. And Adam Lanza CHOSE to murder those who died in Newtown. His exposure to guns, violence on television, medications, personal demons did not make the choice for him. The reason gun control is even being considered as an option to thwart more killings is because no one wants to blame Adam Lanza. We've become convinced that humanity is basically good, therefore something else must cause events like those in Columbine, Paducah, and Newtown. Mankind isn't basically good. We chose to be good, or bad, or somewhere in between; and we've got to take the responsibility for our decisions, and place the responsibility for others' action on them.
 
I agree with muggsjunior. You really do need to blame the individual for the bad acts they commit. There are several problems in doing this, however: The perp is dead - you can't punish or make an example out of a dead guy. That is hard for many people to swallow, thus they look at other "reasons" for the deranged dead guy's bad acts. Also, if you go back just 30-40 years, you will not see deranged people killing large numbers of little children for God-knows-what reason.

So what has changed? That's a natural question to ask. 40 years ago it was 1973. Civilians had access to AR-15's, FAL's, AK's, the first Polymer 18 round handgun (VP 70), M1A, Even the Mini-14 came on line in 1974. Machineguns were still legal to build (and register) and there was no import ban on semi-auto rifles or handguns. Politicians wanted to ban "saturday-night specials" because they were mostly used and owned by black people. Now, Marijuana is legal in two states, and yes, it has been linked to delusional thinking.

Well, the use of psychoactive drugs has boomed. Single-parent families has skyrocketed. Realistic looking video games that involve killing are all the rage. Music has little to do with sex and much more to do with committing acts of violence. Gang activity has just about become main stream.
 
I agree with you Muggs, 100%. We need to lay the blame where it is. I remember when I was growing up, Rottweilers were to blame for dog attacks, then it was whatever, and whatever, now it's pitbulls. How about we blame the owners for not controlling their dog. We pass blame on things that scare us. This is the modern day "witch-hunt". We just find a new witch every few months. The media then puts it's twist on things...
 
I
agree with you Muggs, 100%. We need to lay the blame where it is. I remember when I was growing up, Rottweilers were to blame for dog attacks, then it was whatever, and whatever, now it's pitbulls. How about we blame the owners for not controlling their dog. We pass blame on things that scare us. This is the modern day "witch-hunt". We just find a new witch every few months. The media then puts it's twist on things...
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Isn't this the exact opposite of what Muggs is saying? If a Rottweiler attacks and kills a baby, why are we blaming the owner? Logically, we would blame the Rottweiler that attacked the baby - NOT owners and NOT all Rottweilers.
 
Just look at the "possible" side-effects listed for any of these psychoactive meds. I've mentioned to my doctor in the past during routine physicals that I had been suffering from anxiety (1st time was divorce and the 2nd time was an untimely death in the family).

I was stunned at how casually the doctor (in both instances) offered to prescribe me psychoactive drugs. I asked "How do you decide which one to prescribe?" and the doc told me he just picks one and if that one doesn't work after a few months, then call him and he'll try another prescription, so on and so forth.... no referral to a Psychologist, no suggestion to see a Therapist, no follow-up visit required, nothing, nada. In both instances, two difference doctors in two different states, they even offered "Free Samples" to get me started (which told me a lot about how well he diagnosed my symptoms and "picked" one particular med over the other).

Considering my particular circumstances, I'm just glad that my instincts were to say no to the Big Pharma pusherman.
 
If a Rottweiler attacks and kills a baby, why are we blaming the owner? Logically, we would blame the Rottweiler that attacked the baby - NOT owners and NOT all Rottweilers.
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The dog owner is at fault legally, as it should be.
 
I am not so much sure that the drugs are the issue as much as the indication of how many folks were having mental health issues.

As for the data themselves, some apear quite dubious. First, not all the folks mentioned in the data list are killers. Not all killed and not all attempted to kill. So sensationalizing the information as done through an apparent email rumormill to try to make a point without references is pretty dubious on the surface alone. Heck, one of the incidents is just about a guy who exhibited bizarre behavior. I can't recall being bizarre as counting as being the same thing as being a killer. Nor does getting suspended from school.

So the reason the list is so long is because it is padded with incidents that don't involve killers and some that don't even involve any noted acts of violence.

Also...

School Shooting
Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured
Click to expand...

This was Kip Kinkel. He had been off the drug for more than 6 months. He went off the drug in Fall of the previous year. Correlation with the drug and saying he was in withdrawal is bogus.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kinkel/kip/cron.html
 
It's weird. The people from Scientology have ALWAYS been bent out of shape over Prozac. Maybe they were right.
 
School Murder Attempt
Med For Depression 1995-03-04 California **Young Woman Deliberately Hits 3 Kids with Her Car at Elementary School: Laughed During Attack
Click to expand...

Yeah, take this account. Jocelyne Siebenrock wasn't "young" but was 46 at the time. She was drunk and driving on a suspended license and was at the school to pick up her grandchildren. She apparently had .28 BAL and previously has been arrested for DUI which resulted in her suspension.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...5MzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HDIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=6994,7523086

http://ssristories.com/show.php?item=2849
 
I have first hand experience. Back in 2001 I lost my job due to massive outsourcing of IT jobs to India. I was not alone, for every IT position in my field that became available, there were 500+ applicants. I was a nervous wreck, and my wife, who is a mental health nurse, put me on Paxil. At first it calmed me down, but after about 6 weeks on it, I started thinking really morbid thoughts, it was like my whole thought process was getting screwed up, I could not remember things, and the worst, I did not become angry at people, I just started scheming how I could kill them! I was turning into a cold blooded psychopath, and thankfully I recognised these symptoms and quit cold turkey against the advice of my wife, and decided whatever happens I will deal with it. For sure these drugs make people kill or commit suicide, but big pharma makes so much money of it, anybody starting any serious investigation on it will have bad things happen to them.:eek:
 
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