a quick read of S.1237 raises the following questions

alan

New member
1. The term "appropriately suspected" appears several times. In PLAIN ENGLISH, what might this mean?

2. Re all the power granted to A POLITICAL APPOINTEE (The Attorney General) under this proposed legislation, who died, leaving that worthy king, emperor or godhead??

See my following post for text of S. 1237, or read entirety at thomas.loc.gov
 
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The following is from the July 2007 issue of "American Rifleman" magazine:

Standing Guard
By Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President
National Rifle Association

With the full support of Alberto Gonzales' U.S. Department of Justice, New Jersey Senator Frank Lautenberg is pushing legislation to give the government unprecedented discretionary power to secretly decree that a citizen is banned from owning firearms. The government would need nothing more than a "suspicion" using information it would not have to divulge, ever. Called "Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007"-the Gonzales/Lautenberg bill, S. 1237 drafted by the Justice Department-is the broadest power grab ever proposed over the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. (See NRA's response at: http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/NRA_ltr_gonzales.pdf)

Harlon B. Carter, founder of the modern NRA, said, "Judge a law by the worst reading, and in the hands of the worst enemies of the Second Amendment." Think of Hillary Clinton as president and Charles Schumer as attorney general.
Then look into Luatenberg's proposal and see what could happen to you or me if S. 1237 were ever to become law.

Imagine you are picking up a pristine 1937 first-year Winchester Model 70. You've filled out the 4473 at your friend Bill's shop, and wait for him to get the usual fast clearence from the National Instant Check System (NICS). On the phone, Bill is shaking his head, very animated. He finishes his conversation and motions you over, telling you he cant transfer the rifle. You were turned down. Bill says he argued that you were a longtime customer, a veteran, a high school teacher; and he asked why the refusal? He was told only that the sale was denied. "They gave me a number for you to call", he says. When you get home, you are still in complete shock. You call the number and are told that the refusal had something to do with "suspected terrorism", and that the government is not at liberty to say more. Terrorism? It is simply not possible. You hire a lawyer, and he says it must be an error. Not to worry.
But the new law says "It shall be unlawful for any person...who has been the subject of a determination by the attorney general...to possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition..." Days later you receive an official notice that you no longer can own firearms-based on a suspicion. Your lawyer tells you to divest yourself of your firearms, but before you can do so, federal agents arrive at your home with a search warrant and a form demanding that you surrender all firearms and ammunition. They say you are now on the attorney general's "suspect" list, and as a prohibited person, it is a federal felony for you to possess any gun. They take your gun collection-all of it-in lieu of arrest.

The agent in charge warns you to stay away from guns. They will be observing you. All they will say to your question as to "why" is a reading of a card. Its like one of those Miranda warnings you see on TV: "The attorney general has determined that you are known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof...and thatthe attorney general has a reasonable belief that you may use a firearm in connection with terrorism."

A day later, your lawyer says your situation is hopeless. You can't get your guns back. Under the law, you are now a prohibited person, just like a convicted felon. He reads you the new law-which requires no criminal intent or knowledge, only suspicion: "...any information which the attorney general relied on for this determination may be withheld...if the attorney general determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security."

You ask the lawyer,"Can't we appeal?" He continues: "In responding to the petition, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summariesor redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the attorney general has determined would likely compromise national security."

At the sole discretion of the attorney general, they can withhold anything and everything they allegedly have on you-all in the name of "national security." You have lost your Second Amendment rights-gun ownership is a criminal act-based on a mere "suspicion", and you can't even find out what it is. This outrageous scenerio has not happened yet, but it could if the Gonzales/Lautenberg Brave New World-like legislation-S. 1237-ever becomes law. In creating a new criminal class of prohibited persons based on "suspicion", the same language applies to license denials, to state firearm permit denials and to sale of firearms by individuals. The Bush administration is on record affirming the Second Amendment as an individual right, yet this bill trashes the Constitution, mocking the protections guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. It would arbitrarily take away your rights-without charges-without an arrest, without a trial, and without a conviction-just because the attorney general says so. It denies citizens all due process of law at the sole discretion of government-something that must never happen in America.
Shockingly, Lautenberg is telling the world that he has the full support of the Bush administration and expects this measure to be signed into law. E-mail, write, and telephone your U.S Senators and Congressmen asking them to oppose S. 1237, and tell Attorney General Gonzales to wake up and withdraw his support.
 
read it and weep, text of S. 1237, should it or anything similar ever be enacted

Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007 (Introduced in Senate)

S 1237 IS


110th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 1237
To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of firearms or the issuance of firearms and explosives licenses to known or suspected dangerous terrorists.


IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

April 26, 2007
Mr. LAUTENBERG introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A BILL
To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of firearms or the issuance of firearms and explosives licenses to known or suspected dangerous terrorists.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007'.

SEC. 2. GRANTING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THE AUTHORITY TO DENY THE SALE, DELIVERY, OR TRANSFER OF A FIREARM OR THE ISSUANCE OF A FIREARMS OR EXPLOSIVES LICENSE OR PERMIT TO DANGEROUS TERRORISTS.

(a) Standard for Exercising Attorney General Discretion Regarding Transferring Firearms or Issuing Firearms Permits to Dangerous Terrorists- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting after section 922 the following:

`Sec. 922A. Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm

`The Attorney General may deny the transfer of a firearm under section 922(t)(1)(B)(ii) of this title if the Attorney General--

`(1) determines that the transferee is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism; and

`(2) has a reasonable belief that the prospective transferee may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.

`Sec. 922B. Attorney General's discretion regarding applicants for firearm permits which would qualify for the exemption provided under section 922(t)(3)

`The Attorney General may determine that--

`(1) an applicant for a firearm permit which would qualify for an exemption under section 922(t) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism; and

`(2) the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.';

(2) in section 921(a), by adding at the end the following:

`(36) The term `terrorism' includes international terrorism and domestic terrorism, as those terms are defined in section 2331 of this title.

`(37) The term `material support or resources' has the same meaning as in section 2339A of this title.

`(38) The term `responsible person' means an individual who has the power, directly or indirectly, to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of the applicant or licensee pertaining to firearms.'; and

(3) in the table of sections, by inserting after the item relating to section 922 the following:

`922A. Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm.

`922B. Attorney General's discretion regarding applicants for firearm permits which would qualify for the exemption provided under section 922(t)(3).'.

(b) Effect of Attorney General Discretionary Denial Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) on Firearms Permits- Section 922(t) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(ii), by inserting `or State law, or that the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' before the semicolon;

(2) in paragraph (2), in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law';

(3) in paragraph (3)--

(A) in subparagraph (A)--

(i) in clause (i)--

(I) in subclause (I), by striking `and' at the end; and

(II) by adding at the end the following:

`(III) was issued after a check of the system established pursuant to paragraph (1);';

(ii) in clause (ii), by inserting `and' after the semicolon; and

(iii) by adding at the end the following:

`(iii) the State issuing the permit agrees to deny the permit application if such other person is the subject of a determination by the Attorney General pursuant to section 922B of this title;';

(4) in paragraph (4), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law'; and

(5) in paragraph (5), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law'.

(c) Unlawful Sale or Disposition of Firearm Based Upon Attorney General Discretionary Denial- Section 922(d) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (8), by striking `or' at the end;

(2) in paragraph (9), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by adding at the end the following:

`(10) has been the subject of a determination by the Attorney General under section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H), or 923(e) of this title.'.

(d) Attorney General Discretionary Denial as Prohibitor- Section 922(g) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (8), by striking `or' at the end;

(2) in paragraph (9), by striking the comma at the end and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by inserting after paragraph (9) the following:

`(10) who has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made under section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H) or 923(e) of this title,'.

(e) Attorney General Discretionary Denial of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(d)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking `Any' and inserting `Except as provided in subparagraph (H), any';

(2) in subparagraph (F), by striking `and' at the end;

(3) in subparagraph (G), by striking the period and inserting `; and'; and

(4) by adding at the end the following:

`(H) The Attorney General may deny a license application if the Attorney General determines that the applicant (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.'.

(f) Discretionary Revocation of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(e) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(1)' after `(e)';

(2) by striking `revoke any license' and inserting the following: `revoke--

`(A) any license';

(3) by striking `. The Attorney General may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license' and inserting the following: `;

`(B) the license'; and

(4) by striking `. The Secretary's action' and inserting the following: `; or

`(C) any license issued under this section if the Attorney General determines that the holder of such license (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.

`(2) The Attorney General's action'.

(g) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Firearms License Denial and Revocation Suit-

End of part 1 of S 1237 text, see part 2
 
part 2, text of S. 1237, or see it unbroken at thomas.loc.gov

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 923(f)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the first sentence the following: `However, if the denial or revocation is pursuant to subsection (d)(1)(H) or (e)(3), any information upon which the Attorney General relied for this determination may be withheld from the petitioner, if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security.'.

(2) SUMMARIES- Section 923(f)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the third sentence the following: `With respect to any information withheld from the aggrieved party under paragraph (1), the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(h) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Relief From Disabilities Lawsuits- Section 925(c) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the third sentence the following: `If the person is subject to a disability under section 922(g)(10) of this title, any information which the Attorney General relied on for this determination may be withheld from the applicant if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security. In responding to the petition, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(i) Penalties- Section 924(k) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (2), by striking `or' at the end;

(2) in paragraph (3), by striking the comma at the end and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by inserting after paragraph (3) the following:

`(4) constitutes an act of terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism,'.

(j) Remedy for Erroneous Denial of Firearm or Firearm Permit Exemption-

End of part 1, text of S. 1237, see part 2
 
I do not like the idea of this legislation, and I am a bit more wary of it's catchy title than I was of the more mundane 1022 bill.
 
Mad Martigan:

I'd go so far as to note that the title applied to this POS is the proverbial "doozy".

I sometimes wonder, re the titles attached to legislative proposals, as to whom it might be that dreams (wet or dry) them up. Bad as the title might be, the text is, it srtikes me, worse, much worse.

Having seen this example of the very expensive work product, re what it ultimately costs the taxpayers of this country in both dollars and liberties lost, I wonder as to the following. Might this thing be the proverbial "sacrificial lamb" offered up by the anti Gun Lobby, knowing that it is so outlandish that it will likely never go anywhere, to shield other proposals, proposals that aren't quite so outlandish, the context being that you had better accept this, lest you get something worse. Take your pick as to what "this", or "somethng worse" would turn out to be, perhaps the vaunted NICS Improvement proposal, otherwise known as H.R. 2640

This sort of ploy might give cover to gutless political types, who figure that the electorate isn't smart enough to note that they could have, should have rejected both, or all of the above referenced.
 
You mean they might be presenting it for show with the intention of softening up for their real proposal under the guise of compromise? I can see that happening.
 
I have written to all my congressmen and senators to oppose this POS bill.

Everyone in TFL should do the same.
 
Mad Martigan wrote:

You mean they might be presenting it for show with the intention of softening up for their real proposal under the guise of compromise? I can see that happening.
------------------

Could be, I suspect that it's happened before, as with my observation re "you might get something worse".

Funny thing is that the "something" you accepted in lieu of the other thing, the one that could have been worse, which our elected things could also have opposed, is never the last act, the anti gunners always coming back for another bite.

Saddest part of the foregoing is that this other bite always comes out of the shrinking store of individual rights that might remain.
 
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