A question.

F

Fast Eagle

New member
Moderator, if this is off topic I do appologize, I read the descriptions of the forums and chose this one due to the heavy political overtones in my post.


Gents, I have a question for you all. But first I want to go on the record by saying/asking everyone to consider this thoughtfully. Please don’t turn this into a bellyache session about conspiracies, black helo’s or the like. I want to constructively discuss this.

I have read (here and else where) some posts, not many, but some nonetheless. That the author has postulated, the government might/would order the admirable men and women of the Armed Forces of the United States of America to turn it’s weapons against the very human beings we (I included) swore before God and Country to defend to our death.

Now that said, I will be midst the first to concur the politicians who currently call D.C. home, are very dictatorial and some even quite possibly Proletarian/socialist. There is mountain upon mound of actual tangible documentation to support this. From papers, books and other written media authored by them, to video and audio bites clearly displaying them enjoining and catapulting upon us the control they desire. I would not put it past them, the politicians, to think this individually. But I assure you Sir/Madam, to command the men and women of the finest fighting force acknowledged by mankind to take up arms against the very motive, we stand ready at this moment primed to go to war for, is most outrageous. :eek:

I assure you the Officers and Senior Enlisted men and women would mutiny against the government faster than the politicians could turn upon you.

I am an Officer in the United States Navy; I have faithfully served you for 18 years. I have answered every lawful order I have ever received at no time questioning the significance or course of action. “My job is not to question why, my job is to do or die”!

The only method I have contra orders I do not agree with is to resign my commission as an Officer. But even then I must still execute those orders until I am relieved of my charge.

In the infancy of the present administration the Secretary Of Defense William Kohen had over 10 O-6 grade or higher (Officers) walk into his office and give forth their resignations in objection to the political atmosphere they (the administration) had brought in.

Officer Candidates are actually schooled in ROTC and OCS to prepare to enter upon the command of this country (and others I might add) if the political establishment is ever destroyed, overthrown or rendered/judged unfit to further execute the duties of their office. It is our duty to, “Return to the American people, and the citizens of any Foreign land the lawful control of the elected government. That due process shall not be impeded or refused in anyway”. To do so violates not only the Constitution, but also the Oath I took 18 years ago.

I would never, nor do I currently know an Officer who would execute such a preposterous order. I would look the President of the United States himself in the face, respectfully call him insane, deposit on his desk my silver oaks and my wings and then relinquish myself to the appropriate authority before I would carry out such an order.

I am interested as to how people believe the government would be successful in an endeavor to command such a thing.

I can see how the government would benefit from weapon registering and confiscation and I am completely against that 1000%!

I can almost see a connection between confiscation and the need for government assistance afforded to local police agencies to effect such. But still….

Lets talk fella's


Fast Eagle




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Sir, your remarks are repulsive to me, and I disagree with your viewpoints. But I will defend to my death your God given right to express them.
Voltaire
 
Fast Eagle:

I'm not one of those conspiracy mongers. But I can answer your question anyway because in my nightmares I'm paranoid enough to make up for my waking hours. :)

Let's pretend the authorities issue that terrible order. Shoot to kill everyone in a particular town who tries to sneak out. Drag all the (homophobes? homosexuals? right wing bigots? left wing radicals? gun nuts? homeschoolers? pick your own group) off to places unknown.

There would be a written law, of course. That the law would violate our Constitution is nearly irrelevant; the Constitution in this day and age says only what our leaders want it to say. So it's not like it would be anything other than what we've already seen; just one step further down that same slippery slope. It wouldn't be a "black and white" issue to your compatriots in uniform; many of them would think it was a lawful order simply because it had the force of "a law" behind it.

No matter, let's make it simple. Let's say the authorities didn't pass "go" first and neglected to write their law. So it's nicely cut-and-dried. Unlawful orders.

The order, without the force of 'law' comes down. You are to surround the town of ... oh, name a town ... Waco? naw, too inflammatory ... Podunk Junction. Shoot to kill those that do not surrender immediately and drag all the members of your chosen group off to oblivion.

What happens next? The 'good guys' in the military all turn in their insignia ... and their military weaponry. You wouldn't try to take over the government. You would turn in your oaks rather than obey such an unlawful order.

Who does that leave holding the guns? And what do you think would happen next?

All of this is hypothetical, of course. It couldn't happen here.

pax

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? [...] The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, otwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" -- A. Solzhenitsyn
 
The really interesting thing is that a large number of O-1s and E-3s would suddenly find themselves promoted - And since they'd likely have fewer compunctions, being younger and all that...

It's not the older cops that give me the hairy eyeball when I'm at the range, and they drive past on their way to their training - it's the younger ones... They're who I'm worried about.
 
People without convictions can be bribed to do, just about, anything. If the military is like the general population, then I would say they could be talked into it. I was in a riot control battalion 30 years ago. I think, that if my superiors had told me to shoot the hippies, I would have without much thought. I was trained to obey orders and not to think too much. Sad, but true. And, I think that I had more of a moral upbringing that a lot of our military today.

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"Unless the Lord builds the house, they labour in vain that build it:
except the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain." (Psalm 127:1)


"Freedom is given to the human conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility."
(Alexander Solzhenitzyn)

[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited September 29, 2000).]
 
Fast Eagle:

First off Sir, I would like to thank you for your post. It gives me hope that the true American is the rule rather than the exception. Having said that, to answer your question, the fact remains that those in power will replace those who refuse with those who will. I've seen it before. I just hope that when they get down to it there are not that many left who will.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
I doubt they could attempt it now, but 30 years from now? The indocturnations have just started.

dZ
 
dz;
I think they gone a lot farther then you think.Talk to some of the high school kids nowdays.Its scary.I still don't think that the military would as a group do as they where told.Look at the Russians in 56 in Hungary.A lot of them turned their weapons over to Hungarians.I hope if it does happen instead of resigning there commisions they use their rank to order their men to lay down their arms or to change sides.
I can only hope it never comes.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Dev Group and Delta would carry out those orders with speed and directness.

Outside of DOD, you have HRT, FedMarshals, and our saintly Alpha Tango Foxtrot who would be chomping at the bit to wield such power in such a large operation.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="arial,helvetica">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Byzantine5.56:
Dev Group and Delta would carry out those orders with speed and directness.

Outside of DOD, you have HRT, FedMarshals, and our saintly Alpha Tango Foxtrot who would be chomping at the bit to wield such power in such a large operation.[/quote]


I respectfully agree to disagree with you on that item. I have heard all the scuttlebutt about Delta Force, black helo’s etc… Dev Group? 18 years Navy never heard of’em. Who are they and maybe I just haven’t heard them called by that name before.

I am not a Special Forces type, but I can tell you this. As an aviator we go through what is called POW school, they enlighten us how to be beau ideal prisoners or some such bovine scatology. It is an unwavering psychological detonation against the human mental balance that I assure you most could not withstand. Many a grown man has broken down into sobbing from it, myself included. It is hosted by various groups of the military and we constantly cross train with other services involved with it.

My point; The Navy SEAL’s hold a three day course all Navy and Marine combat qualified aviators must attend. It encompasses a surface study of what to expect if we were taken POW and became the objective of a liberation raid. Basically they teach us how not to be killed by them during a raid.

So I can truthfully say to you I have walked among these elite warriors and I can tell you from first hand judgment, these proud individuals would most likely be the one’s avant-garde in any attempt to “overthrow” an oppressive government. They revere the way they were trained and they consider the voice of the senior enlisted man scripture. And most Senior Chief’s I have known suspicion the government all the way.

I can safely affirm Delta is most likely of the same character. Special Forces are an extraordinary breed, apart from you and me both. I firmly believe they would march through the gates of Hell and never look back to preserve this land and all she stands for. If anyone man in the military ranks understands what it means to die for a cause, it has to be them.


Now, onto your adored FBIBATFUMSSSBFP as well as other diverse alphabet organizations. I concur with you their, they would be the one’s to push abroad and attempt to consummate an order of such, issued by some insane politician. But I would be willing to wager you anything; they would confront a guerrilla movement the likes of which they could never imagine in their worst nightmares. The American People along side the Military who swore to protect them.

A horde of the most well trained, SIG and HK wielding FBI agents would be at best, only insignificant work for any front line Army or Marine unit. My point is this, if anyone government body will stand for, with and by you during times of zero hour, it will be your Military.


Fast Eagle




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Sir, your remarks are repulsive to me, and I disagree with your viewpoints. But I will defend to my death your God given right to express them.
Voltaire
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="arial,helvetica">quote:</font><HR>Posted by FastEagleSo I can truthfully say to you I have walked among these elite warriors and I can tell you from first hand judgment, these proud individuals would most likely be the one’s avant-garde in any attempt to “overthrow” an oppressive government. They revere the way they were trained and they consider the voice of the senior enlisted man scripture.[/quote]

So all that has to happen is for the senior enlisted men (the voice of scripture) to tell the troops that the people to be fired upon are a threat which needs to be eliminated.

Who do the troops listen to? The officers they already know and trust? Or the disorderly civilians screeching that this isn't right?

As honorable as our military has traditionally been, it's simply nuts to say that any person or group of people can be trusted to "do the right thing" in every circumstance.

pax

"Perhaps the meek WILL inherit the earth, but they'll do it in very small plots ... about six feet by three." -- Robert A. Heinlein
 
TA-PO-CATA, TA-PO-CATA<-'scuse the Wally Mitty moment on my part ;)
Fantasy is a wonderful thing. It turns me into a Greek god, and my wife into an Amazon Temptress. Harsh reality is that I'm a fat ole guy, (not stoopid 'nuff to disagree w/Amazon Temptress though. She knows where I lay me down to sleep ;) ) Now it's real easy to see myself, Winchester in hand, jacking rounds at a low flying copter ala Red Dawn. The harsh reality of the matter is the *enemy* is more apt to be carrying a brief case rather than an M60, and dressed for court rather than a battlefield. The person most likely to remove my guns isn't some federal agent, guns ablaze in a Waco type standoff. Nope, truth is, it will be some totally disinterested droid that flatly informs me my *______ fill in the blank disqualifies me from owning a firearm, and I have 48 hours to turn in what I already own. Since I'm (we) are already in violation, due process doesn't apply.(I see a whole cottage industry like the bail bondsman have now springing up somewhere down the road). Sheeshe, I managed to really depress myself. Time for a trip to the range,,,,,while I can still go.

*What I can see being reasons:

Health-Prescription medications, eventually any, for starters any of the mood altering variety. A history of medications will eventually suffice. Look at the number of kids in school being fed this crap. What is it 25% and growing?

Any felony or violent misdemeanor- Felony now, domestic now, the future will be any misdemeanor. Count on it.

Lack of proof of insurance.-Yep. This one is the most likely I can see in the near future. I don't even want to touch on the possibilities since there's a gun show in town, and too much reflection could cause me to sell off what's left of my meager collection.

Now, what was that topic again? Oh yeah, will the military turn their guns on us. LOL! What guns? Next trip to DC, take a look at who can carry there, Ok? You guys (military) are in this as deep as the rest of us. You might THINK you're the standing army, (excuse the lumping of all forces together) but the non Wally reality is, the federal agencies have the lions share of the might. I mean really Fast Eagle, you're just one restraining order from sitting behind an unarmed desk just like the rest of us right?
 
I know you sort of excluded WACO, but that should have answered your question.
Maybe at some point it would get through that they were killing US civilians, but I doubt that would be the first reaction.A lot of it depends on how the govt spins it. Look at what happened when Pres Lincoln set out to preserve the Union or when Douglas Mac Arthur wanted to clear the streets.

Don't kid yourself.

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
The real answer lies somewhere in between - compliance by the military and armed resistance by the military. I'm sure that there are some senior individuals and maybe even some units that would participate in using force against citizens in violation of the constitution. Maybe even some of the "elite units" would go along...for a while.
The presence of Delta Force personnel at Waco is troubling but not unexpected. I doubt seriously that there was any active participation on their part. Too many leaders in the military would revolt against an unlawful order and actively resist any adminstration that would try it.

Someone noted in a prior post that it's not the soldiers of today that would be the problem, but the ones of tomorrow. Those who have been subjected to PC indoctrination from early childhood on. That is a scenario that scares me.

The only solution I can see is to get involved in the system at every level in every way. The idiots who suspended that little girl for the chain incident should be forced to resign since they clearly have no reasoning ability. Judges who make decisions that are in clear violation of the constitution should be impeached. In fact, he entire impeachment process should be streamlined so we can get rid of the felons on the other side of the bench. For a good example of this look up the record of Alcee Hastings, Congessman from Florida. He's a great example of how broken the system really is.

Start in our own backyard first. Like all successful counter-guerilla operations you take out the local leaders first. Work to elect the right people and work to get rid of those who cannot be trusted.

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"The more perfect
civilisation is, the less occasion has it for government." Thomas Paine The Rights of Man 1792
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pax:
So all that has to happen is for the senior enlisted men (the voice of scripture) to tell the troops that the people to be fired upon are a threat which needs to be eliminated.

Who do the troops listen to? The officers they already know and trust? Or the disorderly civilians screeching that this isn't right?

As honorable as our military has traditionally been, it's simply nuts to say that any person or group of people can be trusted to "do the right thing" in every circumstance.

pax

"Perhaps the meek WILL inherit the earth, but they'll do it in very small plots ... about six feet by three." -- Robert A. Heinlein [/quote]

Well you cut my post short and did not include the last of the paragraph you quoted, that most "Senior Chiefs distrust the government anyway".

But you do have a good point though. The troops would listen to the "one's they trust", now who that would ultimately be????

Fast Eagle


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Sir, your remarks are repulsive to me, and I disagree with your viewpoints. But I will defend to my death your God given right to express them.
Voltaire
 
Much of this is born of the dreaded "Question 46" on the "combat Arms Survey" a copy of which may be viewed at: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a441714.htm

Bo Gritz actually interviewed the navy Commander who wrote the survey as a part of a Masters Thesis and came away with the opinion that that is all that this was -- a thesis.

A simple reading of the comments at the bottom of the aforementioned address illustrates how ignorant people are of the survey even though it has been around since 1993.

Those who took the survey also placed numerous negative comments on the survey. There was a site that posted the entire verbage of the survey with comments but I don't know where that is at now. I have actually seen it and there is no doubt that these mongrels would have one Hell of a time with those they sought to enact such an order.

Sleep well. The armed forces will not be coming for us anytime soon as they would have to come for themselves first.

George Will told a quote on one of the shows that went something like "The American people sleep well at night in the knowledge that surly men lie awake prepared to wreak havoc in their defense." Wish I had the exact quote as it was powerful indeed.

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Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
 
I think it would be a safe bet that our Citizens in uniform take the oath to "Protect and Defend" a hell of a lot more seriously than any politician ever did!

ordo
 
In order for the military/police to be used to subjugate the masses they would have to perceive some benefit to themselves for doing so.
One development in recent history that still causes me some discomfort is the switch to an all volunteer military. People who choose to make a career out of the military have a different mindset than those who simply serve their country and then return to civilian life. Once people have put a sufficient investment into their career (any career), they are more inclined to go along with any unpleasant aspects that the job calls for.
"I only have to put in "x" more years until retirement".
There already exists a certain level of resentment among those who serve this country towards those who don't appreciate that service. There are few things that can arouse the ire I feel whenever I see a story about those in the military who are forced to apply for welfare because they can't make it on what the government is paying them.
Every dictatorship in history has been able to assert itself and maintain power by making the military and the police an elite group that enjoys benefits and advantages not available to the general populace. All we need are some hard times and a clever demagogue.
New recruits may still take an oath to defend the Constitution, but I wonder how many of them have any understanding of what that document actually stands for.
The present CIC has taken such an oath. He's also a highly educated man. He doesn't seem to have any problem violating his oath whenever he perceives some advantage to himself.
Can we reasonably expect more from others?
 
Fast Eagle, I hope your premise of the military backing the Constitution is right. I am sure there are individuals and maby whole units who would take up arms against the citizens when ordered. I hope they are the minority.

You CAN buck an unlawful order without resigning your commission. I managed to do so more than once. The first time my wings and bars survived a disposition board. Another time I left my gold leaves out of reach but took out a pair of stars while successfully defending myself.

I too went through SERE, twice; and got to spend six weeks in Coronado. I think you are right, SEALS will protect the country, not the politicians.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Fast Eagle - Excellent post. I'm very comfortable with the knowledge that the vast majority of our armed forces personnel understand the intent and magnitude of their sworn oath.

At least today.

It's thinking about 40 or 50 years from now that gives me concern. To what extent will our future generations believe that their primary role is to serve the state? To what extent will those who espouse belief in individual rights and all of the freedom and responsibility those rights entail, be viewed as... the enemy.

A military loyal to the state will serve the state.

I think too many people today confuse "comfort" with freedom. 40 years from now?

I hope I'm wrong. Apologies if this was a little 'ranty'. :(

Cliff
 
Every year there are two major airshows in SoCal, Miramar and El Centro. They usually last for two or three days and encompass a whole covey of static birds as well as some of the finest aerial demo’s put on by all branches of the armed forces.

For the past two years, I was the F/A-18 demo driver for El Centro and my squadron took two birds down to Miramar for display. After the 25 minute display I always returned to the staging area where spectators and inquisitive types could come and poke their nose into my office and ask questions, (a powerful recruiting tool). :cool:

I don’t believe I ever encountered anyone whom even remotely came across to me as feeling indignant about me or my job, and I have never met an Officer or career Enlisted service man or woman who held similar feelings towards the public, non-military types.

Did you ever encounter this firsthand or is this an observation?

Now I do know a few who do “count the days, hours and even minutes to retirement”, but they are the exception to the rule. I really believe it’s more of feeling of disappointment with current political atmosphere than abhorrence toward anyone.

Now the last part of your statement I cannot oppose, you are valid there.


C.R. Sam, I have never had any orders or directives issued to me I determined unlawful so I have never really been impelled to verify the theory. Now, in my early days as an “En-sun”, :D I did have some career minded Admin types fire off some rather extraterrestrial rockets my way that just totally mystified me and I even had a Senior Chief ask me “unofficially” why I was complying with them, they were all Hotel Sierra.

But hey, I was young, dumb and full of…well, you know the rest. :D

And all I wanted to do was fly my jets, chase buzzards and sea gulls across the countryside drop tons of ordnance with reckless abandon and bed every woman I could find. :cool:

Did you go through Survival at Elgin or Yakima? How bout in Europe?

Fast Eagle
AW_VFA25.gif


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Sir, your remarks are repulsive to me, and I disagree with your viewpoints. But I will defend to my death your God given right to express them.
Voltaire

[This message has been edited by Fast Eagle (edited September 30, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Fast Eagle (edited September 30, 2000).]
 
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