A question for the LEO types

A

Alan B

New member
I live in a rural unincorporated area and lately we have had a bunch of High schoolers driving around at night shooting at people and things with paint guns (guess it beats taking out mail boxes). Here is the question if they shoot at me and I shoot back with something a little more substantial than a paint ball gun is it justified?

A friend who is a LEO said that being shot at by paint ball gun in this case could be considered assault and any return fire is justified?? is this so?

So far I have done little more than give descriptions to the Deputy sheriff. But a neighbor has taken to running them down and running them off the road. But the last time they nailed my front window, and my 2 month daughter was merrily swinging in her swing on the other side (needless to say I was quite pi$$ off).

Ok a few more tidbits for the NON LEO answering here

1. This happened on a Friday it was not until Tuesday that we established the fact that it was a paint ball gun. After one of those middle of the road conversations that Farmer types have in the country and every one compared notes.

2. When what ever it was hit my front window I sounded like Debris from a bullet hit on the Brick front of the house...

3. A neighbor who was putting up Christmas lights in the front yard thought he saw a sawed off shot gun sticking out a window when the car went by him.

4. The neighbor who chased them down and ran them off the road(I wouldn't have done that but I would have got their plate no., he didn’t) was hit in the windshield by a paint ball while driving the other way. (that’s how we got the idea to look for the debris of paint balls)

We still have not found the evidence that it was a paint ball at my house, if it was a paint it ball was just about spent and when it hit the screen who knows where it went the screen probably acted like a rubber band on it… Others though have found the busted paint balls.

I should also point out to you folks who are cautioning against using deadly force that at no time here did I state that me or any of my neighbors used force or contemplated using it. (except for the guy who ran them off the road) I was merely asking on the possible legality of its use under these conditions. Stating that the use of deadly force during a paint ball attack would be hard to explain in court ignores the fact at the time most of us thought that these kids were doing a drive by shooting.

I think my neighbors and myself showed considerable restraint considering the fact that we initially thought it was a drive by, and it seems that every cow in 5 miles is about to, or has had a calf in the last several weeks, the coyote’s are rampant and everyone has some type of firearm handy to keep these pests away from his and the neighbors calves…

Whats really amazing is that no one thought about returning fire until our little pow wow on tuesday evening, and then it was a what if we had scenario.


What I asked about was returning fire with somthing more substantial when you are under fire whether its a paint ball gun or not, what are you supposed to do wait till you take a slug to shoot back and only then return fire with the same type of cartridge?

BTW I understand that being shot by a bb gun is Felony assault in this state and Paint ball guns can included in that definition if not use in the "approved manor">>>


[This message has been edited by Alan B (edited December 14, 1999).]
 
Alan, probably you'd be crucified by everyone for taking a shot at them.
Basic concept of deadly force is the necessary and immediatly use of force in order to save you from death or GBH=great bodily harm.
If you've got a discription and can get them
identified...take the matter to cival court.
Takes a longer time but they will loose and you won't be in tha' hoosgow ( old jail term )
 
I'm not a LEO, but I thought you might want to also mention what state you are from? State laws tend to vary.

Aside from that, I agree with bobo 100%. Never exceed force continuum. If you have to shoot them with something, I recommend a video camera instead. Once again, deadly force is generally ONLY applicable if lives are clearly in immediate danger.
 
Considering the potential damage to your Mark I Ocular system, I don't think that the paintball players wear goggles because they saw in the latest issue of GQ.

Be that as it may, you would be hard pressed to convince a judge or jury that you had a right to shoot back; even if it was with only a 22. I would take the matter to criminal and civil court myself.

As a kid, I was being harassed by the kids across the street. So, I got my Ruger Old Army (loaded with blanks) and fired away. They gave me wide berth after that.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Alan, if you really think about, I don't care how pi***d off you are - if you know they are not using deadly force, you not only won't have legal justification ... but, I doubt you could really live with yourself if you literally shot some punk for this. There is no way to justify this, legally or morally.

Now, if nothing else succeeds, another option might be to fight fire with fire. ;) You could always get a better paint ball gun (they come in darn near full auto, no?), and give them some of their own medicine. Except - use glow in the dark paint that won't come off. ;)
 
I think Jeff's on the right track, here!

Weren't paintball guns originally used to mark cattle for culling? Maybe you could find some of the older, more permanent paint (hardware store/feed store?), or get an insulin needle and replace the water-based paint with oil based paint (in the required neon colors, of course). Or add some UV dye (available from a mechanic - they use it for finding leaks). You should be able to reseal the hole with just a bit of heat (they probably won't be as round, though). Just avoid hitting the windshield - if they wreck, you could be held liable, I think.

On the other hand, blanks, when fired after dark, can be quite disturbing. The 12-gauge field popper loads would probably be the easiest to get your hands on & the loudest.
 
Danger Dave
Jeff Thomas

Oh you guys are great "don't use deadly force, don't shoot back with somthing better" But its ok to commit feloney assault by turning a paint gun on them...

Two wrongs dont make a right..

Besides at the time we (me and most of my neighbors shot at didn't know it was a paint ball gun.


As for the Blank loads whats the difference between that and shooting over their head either way you are technically using deadly force..

get real!
 
"what state are you in" - is critical. In Texas, "deadly force is justified if the actor reasonably believes...".

If you were "being shot at" and didn't know what type of firearm it was, again in Texas, if you believed you were truely in danger then you could shoot.

Geography makes a huge difference.

CMOS


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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
 
Throwing this into the mix:
About 3 yrs ago 3 rich 18-19 yr old boys were doing the same thing...driving around in their BMW shooting folks with paint guns. Unfortunately for the boys, they also videotaped these incidents. They were pretty merciless, too...driving upside someone on a bicycle and blasting him...the bike rider crashed into a parked car rather fast.

Anyway..the kids were busted and a bunch of tapes found. The judge fried them. They got 1.5 yrs in jail and a boatload of fines; they and their families were sued in civil court and lost a bundle.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Laws do vary by state. In Texas I offer the following with boldness and comments:
Definition of 'deadly force' PC 9.01: 'force that is intended or known by the actor to cause, or IN THE MANNER OF ITS USE or intended use IS CAPABLE of causing, death or SERIOUS BODILY INJURY.' (putting your eye out)

PC 9.22 NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm...

PC 9.31 SELF-DEFENSE. ...a person is justified in using force (note it does not say deadly force but may include that) against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force (again not specfically deady force) is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

Although 9.31 does not preclude deadly force, it is an attempt to keep a disparity of force from occurring, the next takes it to the deadly force level, but you have to 'qualify' the force under 9.31 first.

PC 9.32 DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under 9.31; (that is the test to allow any force to be used)

(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation WOULD NOT HAVE RETREATED; (tell the jury)

(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of UNLAWFUL DEADLY FORCE (go back to the definition above); or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sezual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

So if you believed the gun to be real as they were pointing it at you, deadly force is justified. If it was known by you to be a paintball gun and you go for the 'SERIOUS BODILY INJURY' angle, you will need to justify it completely. Texas does permit the use of deadly force to protect property 'to prevent the imminent commission of... criminal msichief during the nighttime'. Spray painting a fence or house IS criminal mischief in the nighttime, I do not know how a court would view a paintball gun shooting a house. It may be related to whether or not the paint can be easily removed. Texas is the only state that allows deadly force to prevent damage or theft of real or personal property under certain circumstances that I am aware of.
 
If you use Deadly Force against another to defend property after dark, I can pretty much guarantee you that the DA will take a Manslaughter/Murder case before the Grand Jury.

Yes, in Texas the law says that you can use Deadly Force against Criminal Mischief after dark, but I can't see a Grand Jury No-Billing you for killing some kid because he painted your car.

LawDog
 
Gee, Alan ... when you say 'shoot back with something more substantial', what do you expect us to think?

You've edited your original post, but I don't think you made it clear originally that you didn't know what you were being shot with. Besides, it's been a while, but as I recall a paintgun sounds nothing like a firearm.

None of us meant to offend you. Good luck with your mad paintballers.
 
"...what am I suppose to do? [W]wait till you take a slug to shoot back and then only return fire with the same type of cartridge?"

Here's the problem (and it's not you Alan B or anybody else here) as I see it and I want to pose it in a hypothetical:

You're a uniformed police officer on patrol and you see a person point what appears to be a gun at you. It's dim, and you can't make out what type of gun. He makes a theatening remark or somehow indicates that he's going to shoot at you. What do you do?

If I, as a police officer saw that, I would draw, seek cover, shout a command ("Police! Drop it!") and engage with deadly force if necessary.

Now let's say it tragically if it turns out to be some mentally retarded kid who couldn't comprehend that his toy pistol looked like the real thing and that his actions would result in him being shot. This very thing has happened in real life. The officers invovled were not charged with murder or manslaughter.

No, I'm not advocating blasting some kids who shoot at you with paintballs. Where you know your assailant does not have the means to hurt you, you simply can't use deadly force. But given the unknown as described in the scenario above, if a reasonably prudent person given the like conditions and circumstance as described in the scenario above believed his life was threatened, he would have the right of self defense.

This is not the case here since the assailant is known to be using only a paintball gun.
Jeff OTMG's posting is very clear on the law (in Texas) and I don't think anyone here would acquit anybody of shooting a person known to be brandishing a paintball gun.

It's a miserable situation and if you can ID the kids, make their lives a civil hell in court.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Alan, is it felony assault if they shot at you first? I don't think any jury would convict you of firing paint pellets back at them, if it ever got that far (like if the DA didn't laugh at them for pressing charges). After all, you were just playing the game of paintball that they started.

The same goes for the blanks - yeah, it's probably not the best idea, but it's a heck of a lot better than your question about really shooting them for firing paint pellets at you. I doubt they'd report it, since there would be no holes to show anyone, and no evidence that you did it. And besides, what are they going to say? "We drove by this guy's house, minding our own business, and when we just fired a few paint pellets at him, he shot back."? I don't think so. Evidently, they didn't report the guy who tried to run them off the road (can you say "attempted vehicular homicide"?), so I don't think they're going to run to the cops. And, it may save their lives in the future - "hey, remember what happened last time we did that? No way dude, leave me out."

A better solution would be a fast operating camera with a zoom lens or a video camera - keep it with you & catch them in the act. Then take your pics to the DA - or at least their parents.
 
The fact that they are using a "gun" may be clouding your judgement here. Imagine if it was a group of kids throwing stones, potentially just as damaging to your family and property, perhaps more so.

If you genuinely believe that someone is pointing a REAL gun at you then lethal force is justified, you don't need to worry about satisfying the 5 golden rules of engagement. You believe someone is about to kill you so you respond in kind. The cops shoot drunks wandering around with sticks in bags when they claim it to be a gun and then raise it in their general direction, so if presented with what is obviously a gun of some sort pointed at you or a member of your family I would think the laws of common sense come into play.

Regards

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Mike H
 
LawDog, shootings have happened regarding criminal mischief at night, involving a teen, with no charges filed. I can remember 2 such instances in the past 6 years.

Remember, the outcome (charges?) will depend on YOUR frame of mind at the time. If you shoot someone for "painting your car", you don't tell the PD that. You tell them when you went to investigate what you believed to be an auto theft, the perp made a threatening move towards you when you instructed him to "stop".

The specific incident may very well involve "criminal mischief", but how you explain YOUR frame of mind to the PD will make all the difference - in Texas.

CMOS


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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
 
Well, I used to be one of those kids that would throw water balloons at people. I've grown up and matured since. Take this story however you want. My friends and I were driving around throwing balloons out the window of my car in high school. As we drive though a intersection my friend hits the back window of a four door car. The window is down just a little so the inside of the car gets wet along with it's driver. We laugh our heads off and continue on. Two miles down the road we get passed by a four door car. The guy in the car gets ahead by about 50 ft and hits the brakes, he slides sideways as to block both lanes(curb on right, median on left). I slam on my brakes, but before I even come to a stop the guy is out of his car with a 1911 .45 pointed at me and my passengers. I throw my car into reverse and back up in a hurry(no traffic). The guy follows as we hit speeds near 90mph in the city(ABQ). Finally loose him in traffic and go hang at my friends. I went home about two hours later just in time to meet the officer who had explained this guys side of the story to my parents. The guy never mentioned the gun he pulled on us when he talked to the officer. The officer says me and my friends need to go to this guys house and apologise. I told him to forget it. Cop gets a little mad because he doesn't believe that the guy pointed a gun at us either. The cop decides that my friends and I need to go over to this guys house and talk to him. On the way over (in police car, me in front friends in back) I show the cop the guys skid marks from his road block he pulled. We start walking up to this guys door and he comes out yelling and calling us four letter words. Cop tells him to cool off. The guys starts telling his story and slips up about having a gun in his car. Cop asks to see it. They go and look at it and it matches the gun myself and my friends describe. In the end the guy got arrested for pointing the gun at us and reckless driving. I got a warning not to drive anywhere, but school and work for three month from the cop or he would take away my drivers licence.
I was wrong, but now I know as an adult the only time you point a gun at someone is when you are fearing for your life. This would include real guns with blanks. Don't try shooting the kids with anything but a camcorder. Get the plate number of the truck and file a complaint. If you do anything else your just antagonizing the kids. There is no mistaking a paintball gun, it doesn't sound like a real gun and has a large paintball feeder on the top of the gun. Act like an adult and don't look for an excuse to harm someone or even the score. What if someone shot your kid for raising hell with a paintball gun?

[This message has been edited by mleaky (edited December 15, 1999).]
 
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