a question about a S&W .38 from a (very) new member

D

David007

Inactive
Hi, I am new both to shooting and to posting on these forums so I hope I can figure it all out and make sense at the same time.
I bought a gun some years ago. It is a S&W .38, chrome colored, with what looks to be a 2-2 1/2 inch barrel. It has the trademark on the right side but no other markings besides a made in USA stamp and the serial number (beginning with 438), which is preceeded by a small v (stamped to the left and separate from the actual number). I have been told that this indicates that the pistol is a "victory" model designed for the British service.
I described all of this because I am hoping that it will help answer my question. I have only recently started shooting, after I purchased a Winchester 94, and had the revolver for home defense. I had not fired it until recently.
A friend and I fired the pistol and found that we had a very difficult time removing the spent cartridges, which had swollen along the middle two thirds of the shell. We fired both .38 spl+P and .38spl rounds, with the same result. This did not occur with rounds fired from his pistol.
The only conclusion anyone at the range could come up with was that the gun was chambered for a .38/200 British round, and could have been altered to take the other types. I was told that it would be unwise to shoot anything other than regular .38 rounds, but I am still a little worried.
I read some online about the .38/200 and the only difference I could see was that the British round had a heavier bullet.
Is this enough to cause this distortion? Is this gun still safe to shoot?
Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, David
 
Sounds like you've come to the right conclusion.

The gun sounds like it started off life as one made under contract for British or Commonwealth nations. The round it fires, in British parlance, is the .380/200.

In American vernacular, it's called the .38 S&W (no Special). It's an earlier round that uses a somewhat larger case and bullet. Not that much larger, but large enough that a .38 Spl. case will swell.

After WW II many thousands of these guns were brought back, and many had the cylinders reamed out to "accept" .38 Spl. cartridges. A stupid, and potential dangerous, conversion, if one were to shoot +P or +P+ ammo though it.

It was also nickle plated sometime after the war, as the original finish was blue or parkerized.

My advice is, if you want to shoot it, get a box of .38 S&W cartridges (again, NOT specials), and see how they shoot.

DO NOT shoot +P ammo in this gun!
 
S&W owed Britain a ton of money. S&W was to have developed a machine gun for the British military. That didn't work out. The depression of the 30s hit. This combination of events left S&W strapped for cash and with no way to refund the R&D funding to Britain. In the 30s a paperhanger and amateur artist started raising a fanatical political nationalism in Germany. Britain was absolutely terrified and short on armaments. S&W offered a large supply of M&P revolvers instead of cash to Britain. They were chambered in 380-200. They originally used Dum-Dum style bullets. This gave the 455 stopping power in a 38 caliber bullet. They were loaded HOT. The bullets were determined to be in violation of the Hague Convention. They were replaced with a lighter 176 bullet IIRC. They were still loaded HOT. The USA had been using a 147 bullet in the 38 S&W (short) round. The ability to fire 38 S&W and 380-200 was a plus for S&W. They simply began producing them for the USA too in WWII. They were also chambered in 38 Special. The same metal was used for both. Post-WWII surplus revolvers were popular. 38 S&W or 380-200 was not. Most were honed out for 38 Special wadcutters. Several were converted by replacing the cylinders with 38 Special cylinders. Some were NOT safely or properly converted. I have seen at least one that will chamber 357 Magnums. THAT IS NOT SAFE! 38 S&W is available. I believe that yours was improperly honed. I would NOT use 38 Specials in it at all. The barrels were often cut, recrowned and the front sight reinstalled. I consider them interesting pieces of history. IOWs, hang it on the wall.
 
The Great Depression had been going on for 10 years when Britain approached Smith & Wesson with $1 million and a request that the company develop a "Light Rifle" chambered for 9mm Parabellum. This was, IIRC, right before or right after the debacle at Dunkirk, and the British were desperate for weapons to replace those that had been lost.

S&W designed a gun in the best traditions of old-world design. Complex, intricate parts machined out of billets of steel and laboriously blued.

The British took the prototypes, started testing, and immediately started breaking them.

Turns out that S&W had used American 9mm ammo to develop the Mark I Light Rifle, and at the time American 9mm was SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful that British military ammo.

So, S&W went back to the drawing board, made changes, and produced the semi-/full-auto Mark II. It broke nearly as quickly as the Mark I, and the British, by this time, were sorely pissed and wanted their money back.

Unfortunately, S&W had already spent about 80% of the money on R&D and salary, and it simply didn't have the money to give back.

Enter Carl Hellstrom. He brokered the deal that allowed S&W to keep the money in exchange for providing revolvers to the British. Since they needed guns of all types, they jumped at it.

This was a win-win for S&W in a lot of ways, not the least of which it allowed them to maintain solvency until more contracts came on line with both the US and other governments, it allowed them to clear massive amounts of stock that had been sitting around for years, and it put them in the position to become the dominant American revolver maker following the war.
 
As with any old firearm of unknown origin, find a competent gunsmith in your area that will check the firearm. They will then be able to make recommendations to you about the proper ammunition for the revolver and if it is still suitable for use. They should'nt charge you an arm and leg to just evaluate it. Finding someone qualified to do this is a little trickier. Ask around your local firearms dealers or gun club. Good luck. Old guns, old dogs, and old pickups are some of my favorite things.
 
Reamed-out V-model

Opinions vary as to whether or not this is a "safe" practice. (Ees GON! Ees NOT safe!)

One thing, though - - While not near so common as the .38 Special cartridges, the shorter .38 S&W ammo can be found, and these old revolvers work fine with that ammo, even if converted. This always presumes the revolver is otherwise sound. Some three years back, member Jim March posted a thread about evaluation of a used revolver, and it is VERY helpful. It may be found at:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57816

I've seen a lot of V-models altered in all sorts of ways. The most common is just to shorten the barrel somewhat and run a .38 Special chambering reamer into the cylinder. Others were nickel- or bumper chrome plated, and quite a few were cut down to "snub nose" length, sacrificing the front latch in the process. Unfortunately, many of the "conversions" were carried out by persons of dubious skill, and the plating might or might not adversely effect the safe operation.

With so short a barrel, your revolver probably has no front lockup. It should be okay with the lower powered S&W ammo. I personally would not use the somewhat higher powered British military ammo, but be content with the mild US commercial ammo. This is normally a 146 gr lead bullet at about 700 feet per second.

Historical note: Lee Harvey Oswald used such a cut-down V-model to kill Dallas PD Officer J. D. Tippett in the hours following the Kennedy assassination.

Best regards,
Johnny
 
Thnaks for the help

I appreciate the replies. I haven't decided whether or not I would ever really feel comfortable shooting a gun with such a questionable history, but it is neat to know its general origins. I agree with Eka, I like the old or classic guns, and really got into this watching a History Channel show about "the ten guns that changed the world". The .38 revolver was not one of them, but I already had it, and only took it to shoot when I got my 94 model Winchester 30-30 (which I completely love by the way). I am in the very beginnings of collecting the more interesting seeming American made weapons on that show (Colt SAA, 1911 automatic, M1 Garand, etc), as much for the personal interest I have as for the fun of firing them.
Anyway, thanks again for the help.
 
If the gun scares you in it's current configuration...

A Model 10 .38 Special cylinder can be properly fitted to the Victory Model frame, and you'll have something very similar to the current K-Frame .38's. My own .38 S&W M1905 (pre-Victory) was a rather sad-looking affair, before I put a new cylinder and barrel on it.

ppcleftaristocrat.jpg
 
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