A Personal View On Handgun Defence - Opinions Invited

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Mike H

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Now I'm a new member of this forum, and from what I see it's very good, none of the political rubbish you get elsewhere. The handgun defence questions are of course always the same, should I get a .40 or a 9mm, do .40's really blow up, is sig or glock the best, where do babies come from, etc etc. So here's my view on the defence topic, after all that's what guns were invented for. Now I love to shoot 9mm's, the ammo is cheap and plenty powerful, and the guns are downright pleasant to shoot, .40's buck and ride a little too much for follow ups, .357 Magnum is unpleasant in a 4" Bbl and pure insanity in a 2" Bbl. So what's the best all round gun, a Glock 22, a Sig P220, a Colt "Caveman" 1911 - to me none of the above, I can never get past my .38 spl 5 shot. Why ?, well it NEVER jams, is simplicity to operate, easy to shoot and has sufficient power under 10 yards to make someone realise that trying to hurt me or my family was a very bad idea, even with tame standard pressure loads. Most self defence shootings happen when they are the least expected and at very very close quarters, powder burns are commonplace, you rarely get to adopt a Weaver stance or gain a full sight picture. Often the muzzle of the weapon has to be jammed in the ribs of the assailant (this will choke an auto) or fired from an overcoat pocket against an attacker who already has a gun aimed at you (this will jam an auto), also any shootings that take place at ranges over 8 yards usually result in YOU appearing in court because the law judges you to have an escape opportunity at such distances of 10 yards or so, yet you will still see people shooting pistols against silhouette targets at crazy distances down at the range. The .38 is so small, it's like a part of my hand, a pocket knife that fires bullets, when I carried autos, they always felt too bulky, too complicated, and too prone to failure, even though it was only one in a thousand rounds. So I shoot my Sig for pleasure and carry my snubbie for protection, so step up and make your case.

Mike H

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Mike H
 
Greetings Mike H. Seems like I answered this
question over on another forum. Personal choice's; mind would shake out this way:

1)Sig-Sauer P220A in .45ACP
2)Sig-Sauer P228 in 9m/m
3)Sig-Sauer P226 in 9m/m
4)Sig-Sauer P229 in .40S&W
5)Glock 23 in .40S&W
6)Glock 27 in .40S&W*

Needless to say, I prefer Sig's; but there's
not a thing wrong with the Glock's. The *
indicates my choice of "off-duty" carry weapon, while dressed in blue-jeans and a
T-shirt, or shorts, etc. On the Glock's;
the hi-cap magazines of the Model 23 will
work in the Model 27. For overall duty,
you can't go wrong with the Sig P220A in
.45ACP. I bet my life on one everyday,
with only a few exceptions. A rare bird
would be to find a P220A in 9m/m. There
are a few around; but real hard to find.
Maybe, these are the finest shooting guns
ever manufactured; excluding the Sig P210,
of course. The compact P228 is real quick
from the holster to a first shot hit. The
P226 speaks for its self; being in use by
the vast majority of the police department's
at home and abroad. The P229 has also won
some favor among civilians and law enforcement. With large hands, and full power
factory ammo; this compact model "heels" a
little too much for me; thus deserving of it's 4th place ranking. Pointability, the
Glocks have an edge. They are also winning
a lot of shooter's over. I have no personal
complaint's against these weapons; I just
prefer Sig's, as I stated.

Very Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member



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Ala Dan
 
Hello again Ala Dan, I noticed your name on the list here and yes we've corresponded recently in Gunweb where you expressed your preference for the P220 and P228, for anyone who is interested by the way, us non-LEO types will soon be able to buy the superb P228 in 9mm again real soon, contrary to popular rumor, this gun has only been TEMPORARILY withdrawn from civilian sale while Sig fill the mass of LEO orders placed with them, when that's done, we can buy it again, the little gun is so popular Sig can't make 'em fast enough.

Guess I'm looking for some slightly less polite opinions on why .38's or revolvers are a bad choice for PD, if politeness is your only fault Ala, you've got it made.

Regards

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Mike H
 
Mike H,
I'm afraid you'll get no argument from me on snubbie .38s for defense. You make some very valid points. Heck, I used to carry a Detective Special as my primary weapon.
However, I think you're being a bit harsh in your judgement of autos. They are excellent choices for concealed carry and far less prone to failure as you seem to think.
I switched from revolver to auto for two reasons. 1- autos are flatter making them easier to conceal and more comfortable to carry. 2- easier to carry spare ammo and reload faster.
The real truth is that the best gun for personal defense is the one you have with you when you need it.
 
Mike, I let a few vets glove your post before I spoke. Seems to me you have a system that works for you. I respect that. Although I prefer the 45 auto, the 38 is my next investment. I haven't spent enough time with it to offer a true opinion, but I love the concealment advantages and light weight potential of a snubby for backup or in hot weather. I think we work on our personal weapons systems for life. Literally.
 
MikeH, I like my Smith Airweight 38...for when I just CAN'T carry anything bigger. But when I CAN (most of the time) I carry a 45 auto. I have never had a jam out of any of the 1911s I own and yes, I HAVE had a jam---a few actually---with my Airweight.
 
The general rules for self defense pistols are as follows: shoot the biggest caliber that you can, ACCURATELY. Secondly, PRACTICE.
Thirdly, shoot the ammo in practice you are going to use for self defense.

You must realize that any handgun is marginal for stopping a human being. The only way to accomplish this is to put BIG holes through vital organs, and repeat quickly until desired results are obtained. The person must bleed out until he is either so weak that he is not a threat, or dead. There are no magic bullets. Any good SWC in your .38 snubbie will work.

Don't believe me? Just go to the Firearms Tactical Institute site:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/

Look up the Tactical Brief #7 (July 88), and read about the 1986 FBI shootout.

One perp was hit by a 9mm Silvertip. This hit his R elbow, severing the brachial artery which began, and continued to, spurt arterial blood several feet. The bullet then continued and penetrated his chest, severing many pulmonary vessels (about 2,300cc blood in his R chest; that is not quite 5 pints; a LOT), completely collapsing his R lung, and ended just short of the vena cava.

Now, the question. Do you consider this good performance for a bullet?

I happen to think it was. Unfortunately, although additional wounds were inflicted, this wound was the ONLY fatal wound the perp suffered, and after receiving it, he fought for about 4 minutes longer, killing and wounding several FBI agents. The FBI then switched to the 10mm, due to perceived inadequacies of the 9mm.

I think the real failure was to inflict more fatal wounds. Large holes through vital organs, causing massive bleeding is what will stop people, nothing else.

I have been a shooter since the 1950's, and have 20 years' experience as an ER MD. I have seen plenty of GSW's. Thus, this is a subject about which I know a fair amount. I hope that this information helps.

Walter Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine NRA Life since 1972
 
Guys,

Thanks for the replies, I'd like to hear more from Rik as to what jammed his Airweight, I've only heard of one revolver jam previously and it certainly wasn't a S&W. As for the shoot 'em till they bleed to death concept, this is of course true, but I view my .38 as a shoot and scoot weapon. Real life shootings show that the majority of people fall down when shot, oh sure the Miami incident showed that doesn't always happen, but the FBI had to press their position, sometimes they are on drugs and the shock doesn't register, but on the whole perps have been shown to have a distinct lack of fight when shot by any caliber, I don't want to kill just avoid being killed. I would be looking to get away, the guy would get one or two to the center of mass and then I would be looking to exit stage left with three rounds as my ready reserve, in ht ehouse where he would have us all cornered I'd have 11 9mm Hydrashoks ready to go - different story entirely, thanks for the replies and hey Rick fill me in on those revolver jams I'm curious.

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Mike H
 
I had a new (1998 vintage) S&W M442 revolver lock up on me last year. The revolver had about 100 rounds through it prior to the lock up (Federal Nyclad, Federal Hydrashok, etc). It locked up while I was firing Winchester 158 grain +p .38 special factory loads. I had only fired about a half dozen +p's through it before the malfunction. Something internal to the gun's mechanism seized up. It was not a primer blowback. Absolutely blew my mind and destroyed my faith in the weapon. I traded it at the first opportunity; the gun shop returned it to Smith and Wesson for factory repair. They replaced several parts. New owner is apparently pleased with it. Thinking back to that incident, I am not sure that that particular gun was rated for +p loads. Anyway, I like them so much I am thinking about getting another one. You can't beat them for concealability! 5 shots for sure! (or so I thought!!)
 
The Smith Airweight jammed so badly while shooting at the range that I had to take it apart and spray the innards out with lubricant.
I also had two other revolvers lock up, one due to a broken spring and another due to a cylinder out of time.
Never had a single jam through any Colt, Kimber or Springfield 1911 I have owned. (Though I admit I did have many many jams with a friend's new Colt Gold Cup, which is why I will never own one).
 
Gotta love the simplicity of revolvers, as well as their reliability. BUT..... I can unload 2 ten round mags from my 1911 as fast as a LEO buddy can unload and then accomplish a reload with any revolver, fact being the reloading process of a revolver even with moon's or full house quickloaders requires a quick look down to align the cartridges with the cylinder. And reloading after 5-6 shots is a pain, if you can carry 10 (Chip Mccormick shooting star mags world class baby try'em) in a 1911 or 17 in a glock more power to ya, I think a revolver for backup is an excellent choice though.

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DOCSpanky
"Walk softly and carry a big stick, perferably one of the 12 guage variety!"
 
I am fond of reading the pros and cons of having a revolver/auto .38, 9mm and .45 ACP. No matter how Mike H. glorify the snubby .38, I am still in favor and carry a 1911 model or a 9mm auto. The 1911 is heavy, but good fitting to my waist and could hardly detected even wearing a t-shirt if properly fitted not to go futher of the power it could deliver. Remember! the Americans soldiers assigned in Phils during the colonization period, they requested a heavier bullet to stop a determined attacker as they experienced it. Nothing wrong with the .38 it is a matter of preference and it has been said or presented many times by writers that revolver is user friendly, but it is not appropriate to say that the revolver is better than the autos. US won't select the autos as official side arms of his military if it is not far better of than the revolvers. I like revolver but I prefer a hundred times of the auto-loading. Thanks,
 
if i remember right the bad guys in miami were ex-rangers that were and had big balls to do what they did. they expected and reacted to the firefight. not the kind of guys you ever want to run into.
most likely you will run into some goofy kid on drugs where you will need a good thumper because he won't feel anything because of fear and adrenalin.
with that said, i like a S&W model 60 357mag
to carry around, loaded with 38+p, it is accurate and will take the loads easy.
but for home, give me a 45acp any day of the week!
 
Hey Walt....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Thirdly, shoot the ammo in practice you are going to use for self defense. [/quote]

So, are you telling me you are using those sling shot practice loads of yours with 3 grns of Bullseye as a CARRY LOAD???? ;) No wonder you don't like my Kimber. The sunburn on your legs has now gone to your head.

(For the rest of you... tongue very FIRMLY in cheek and DrPlayTime knows it.) :)



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Bubba
IDPA# A04739
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It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper
 
Mike H, I will have to disagree with your statement that a 4 inch 357 is unpleasant to shoot. Get the Model 13 with the 4 inch bull barrel and that weapon will be devestating and accurate as a self defense gun. My opinion and I own a Browning HiPower, 1911 45, a SW 45acp stainless Revolver(another good wheelgun for selfdefense) and a Czech CZ52 which shoots Magnum velocity loads in the 762.25 Caliber. To be blunt , placement is everything,but placement and a powerful round is even better for saving your life.
 
FWIW, I carried a Chiefs Special 3" square butt for years as a Sheriffs Deputy and never felt unarmed. Loads were Plus P or equivalent, and I carred one speed loader.

Walt Welch's three rules are good ones. The best defense gun for you is the gun you can handle well and shoot accurately. IMHO, there are lots of reasons, including legal ones, not to "overarm". If you do need to use a gun in self defense, with or without a CCW, you want to look like an honest citizen carrying a gun for last ditch use, not like an armed to the teeth "Rambo" going hunting for human victims.

Jim
 
I'll take those J-Frame S&Ws. I have two that I carry more than any other guns. They are perfectly adequate for any situation that I will reasonably find myself in.

Both of mine are steel framed. I don't think that the alloy framed guns are durable enough for the great amount of shooting that I do. I reload and have fired thousands of rounds of +P equivalents from my two guns with absolutely no problems.
 
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