A New Rifle for a New Millenium

T

Tom Jefferson

New member
It is possible now to define the requirements for a truly new rifle, incorporating accuracy and velocity, control, versatility and convenience. Help evaluate the requirements and properties.

1 Accuracy and Velocity - .1 moa at 6000 fps (under .28 inch caliber) with dynamic wind correction to 500 yards.

2 Completely adjustable trigger with keyed phrase (or number) electronic lock. Recoil compensation. Integral optical sight.

3 Multiple caliber support, .17 to .5 inch.

4 Folds into three pieces fitting into 12 inch square high impact case, weight less then 7 pounds (plus 2 pounds for case).

What do you think?
 
First it would take a new propellant system. After you come up with a propellant that will give you 6000 fps the rest become impossible What I am saying is you might as well ask for 10,000 fps and pack in a container 6 inches and weigh one pound. Get realistic
 
Not even close to your requirements, but the HK G11 is .223 cal, caseless, holds 100 rounds on top, is a bullpup configuration, has "around the corner" optics, cycles in single or 3rd burst mode at 3,00 rds pr/minute and weighs only 5lbs loaded? Is this close enough to a "millenium weapon??
 
Gentlemen, plese be of good faith! The purpose here is to try to find the qualities that appeal to shooters, and sportsmen. Let the technical people worry about the implementation. What ddo we want the piece to do. This is not a military weapon!
 
Not that I don't think the weapon you put forward is impossible but the cost of such a weapon in the next say 10 years or more would be way over what any of us could afford. Take a look at the new rifle that is being looked at by the army the thing costs 50,000. The weapon you want will not be feasible for more than 25 plus years IMHO anyways and even if it was who is going to shell out that type of money?
 
Perhaps this isn't going to work.... But I'll try again anyway.
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Please suspend belief(if necessary) and just imagine the qualities and properties you would like such a rifle to have. I ask only that you focus on the precision shooter and hunter, imagining how you could meet the needs of both.
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What are those needs?
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Ask for anything just don't exceed the laws of physics in your requests.
 
Hmm. Some type of energy weapon. Rail gun? (Just need a more compact efficient energy source.) Something other than lasers as they would be hampered by environmental conditions.

- Ron V.

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I'm with HKSigWalther; a rail gun would be the right direction to head, but there's no way you could even come close to making weight, right now. (Though they might work for tanks, and definitely would be feasible for ships.)

Tom, 6k fps may sound feasible, but that's before you look into the way air resistance increases with speed. I believe the correllation is resistance is squared with respect to speed. Galeleo didn't even think air resistance mattered a whit, and "proved it" at the Tower of Pizza and through experimentations with artillary (which fired projectiles at about 200 fps at that time, and thus diminished the effects of air resistance to within the margin of error. He knew something was wrong; he just didn't think it was the air.).

.1 MOA at 500 yards? Uh, well, if conditions agree... why not. It's utter science fiction, now, but hey, if you get that 6k fps thing worked out...

Multi-cal. Okay. Why?

Why three-piece? What's with the case?

Okay, you're definitely getting credit for thinking outside conventional parameters. Now justify that it's possible. I don't think it will be for over 100 years. But who knows what they were saying about the future of firearms in 1871, 100 years before I was born?

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt
 
TJ:

In a word - YES!!

I've had several conversations with some folks about a similar design. There appears to be two big drawbacks to the concept. Those being propulsion - it takes a lot of energy transduced to a mechanical vector to achieve that sort of acceleration in a small device. The effects of atmosphere is the second major issue to a high velocity KE (kinetic energy) projectile.

I don't think such a device would lend itself to hunting as the effect of ultra velocity impacts would leave little game left. As a competitive tool, it would have to stand in its own category. As a weapon, it would never get beyond the confines of wishful thinking for the majority of the populace.

If you've more than a passing conceptual interest in this, contact me via email.
 
Well, I see two other problems not brought up.

1: I'm not a metallurgist but I don't know of any hardened material (possibly alloy) for the barrel that would be able to handle those speeds for very long unless the projectile was something considerably softer.

2: The heat generated by the friction between the projectile and barrel and also the propellent would be incredibly high (to get to 6Kfps).

- Ron V.

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[This message has been edited by hksigwalther (edited January 16, 2000).]
 
hksigwalther and others; thanks for entering the spirit of this thread! Since you have been so kind let me proceed by giving some brief details of two (already patented) methods (quite old really the work was done over 20 years ago) which address some of your points.
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1 In an arrangement (now in the public domain from multiple inventors)the propellant can be kept out of the bore of the rifle by initiating ignition BETWEEN the projectile and the propellant column. hksigwalther was right in raising this issue since propellant induced wear (friction) is major source of barrel erosion at high pressures.
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2. Projectiles which continue to accelerate after leaving the barrel are quite capable of achieving high velocity (or maintaining a given velocity) without the problems associated with existing systems. Like 1 this has been done before although some details of a high accuracy solution set are not yet the subject of a patent application and must remain unspoken here in a public forum (or the laws of most countries including ours reduce or eliminate the inventors rights).
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Now then can we continue to talk about the properties we would like in an improved shooting and hunting rifle rather then the specific solution set? Again I'm trying to understand what others who have an informed interest in these areas might find desirable and appealing.
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Heres one- how about a weapon which requires no licensing and can be sold through the mail or on the internet (legally in the U.S.- lord knows I don't want to talk about foreign arms laws!).
 
I live in Illinois and do most of my hunting with a shotgun. If envision the hunting firearm of the next millenium as follows:

1. A smoothbore capable of firing sabot slugs a.at 2000 fps with 2moa accuracy and 1000 fp of energy at 200 yds.

b. at 3500 fps with 1moa accuracy

2. A "grip adjustable" choke - capable of being adjusted while shouldered.

3. An optical sight switchable for suitability depending on the load detected in the chamber. Also displaying the ammo/choke configuation in the heads up display.

4. Instant load selection: I can't count the opportunities I've missed by having the wrong load in the tube while hunting.
 
Tom--
Don't mean to be a wet blanket, here, but continuous accelleration... that's a rocket-propelled missile, and thus not a rifle, not legal.

To your last, are you saying,"Let's just focus on what we want, not how we can do it"? If so, my interest is waning. I enjoy science fiction, but the best SF is based on practical concepts of only a single fiated technology.

Regards,
L.P.



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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt
 
I see what you are getting at now. I want a rifle that has an integral recoil reduction system that can make a .308 or 30.06 feel like a .223 and .223 feel like a .22. I would also like to see ceramics and carbon fiber used not just for weight but I want a rifle that you could leave in a lake for a year and not see any rust.
 
While we are at it I want a scope with a laser range finder that adjusts automatically and has a built in gps.
 
Keifer has a great idear with a grip adjustable choke on his scatter gun, and it is more probable than the accuracy he is asking for. Very doubtful out of a smoothbore. TJ, sounds like you are wanting a mini-cruise missile launcher. That would be fun but I doubt even the NRA could make a good enough arguement for the continued acceleration theory. Seems like I saw Superman battle some sinister bad guy who had a death ray gun of some sorts. Thats what I want, you could cook your supper at 1000 yds. ;)
 
Actually, Long Path it is not illegal to have a rocket launcher (for sufficiently small rockets in most states) but this in fact is not the proposal. The key to the technique is not to build a rocket but to obtain a rifle lauched projectile which can continue to accelerate after leaving the muzzle. This boost mode activity is not addressed by any existing gun laws or restrictions of which I am aware (since the effect is obtained with out an explosive material or rocket fuel). Its not science fiction at all, indeed when I did the patent search I found that the Navy had actually tested the method in the 70's (of course not for sports shooting).
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KEIFER you got it guy! Great set of requirements! I love the load selection and grip set choke requirement. High accuracy slugs-excellent request! Any one else agree?

Certainly the purist will argue its not a rifle anymore but we won't worry about them. My only concern is if you have load selection how do you deal with the rounds limits for shotguns in most states? Whoops I just thought of way to do it! Very interesting or maybe- Way Cool!
 
Well, certainly, the faster the better (up to relativistic speeds). If you can get a platform to launch something at that rate the less likely environmental conditions will be a factor. There would be no need for mid-flight correction. Even at the conditions TJ had mentioned (6Kfps/500yds) this is only 0.25s. Less airtime equals less effects.

Unfortunately, at those speeds any (small) projectile will have minimal effect as it doesn't spend enough time to transfer the necessary energy to the soft target. In my opinion, the round would just go through like an arrow. I remember a small demonstration of a pistol round shot at a sandbag and the sandbag stopping the round. Then an arrow was shot at the sandbag and it went through. The key was, of course, momentum. The high speed of the new requirement, I think, would give the new projective the momentum it needs to go through like an arrow.

Microchips underneath the skin in your fingers (and thumbs) and (both) hands with the reader all the way around the grip areas. Unfortunately, this could be used for other purposes (the chips that is).

The perfect weapon would be (near) instantaneous with no recoil and minimal weight. Sounds like a laser with compact energy source (with and adjustable beam diameter). Don't have to compensate for bullet drop.

- Ron V.

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