A man open carrying is murdered with his own gun.

F

FoghornLeghorn

New member
I know this subject is hotly contested by people on both sides of the discussion, but this is a news article about a man who had his gun snatched from his holster, and was shot to death with his own gun.

I wonder what kind of holster and what kind of retention device he had.

From the article.

Tyler, 48, a customer at the gas station, was wearing a gun in a holster, plainly visible, when Smith grabbed the weapon from Tyler during a struggle inside the store and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith, authorities said.
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http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/l...cle_5971f160-05d5-11e3-b11c-0019bb30f31a.html
 
The article also indicated the gun owner was shot while chasing the thief. Chasing an armed man is dangerous enough when one has a weapon, and is not usually recommended. When one is unarmed...

The shooter may have had some mental health issues.

Last, the shooter later used the stolen gun to kill a second man, during an attempted robbery.
 
If somebody grabbed my gun I'd be running the other way thankful he didnt shoot me on the spot with it.
Definitely wouldnt be giving chase...

I do wonder... would Cosby still be alive if Tyler had kept it concealed?
 
I don't have a problem with open carry, but I definitely would recommend a retention holster, a backup weapon, and some serious weapons retention training.

The open carrier is at even more of a disadvantage then a police officer. At least the cop has a radio that links him directly to other officers that will drop everything to help one of their brothers in trouble. Private citizens at best have a cell phone to call 911. It can take between one and five minutes from 911 receiving a call to the time it is actually sent out over the radio to the police so they can respond to it. Then an average nationwide three minute response time for the police to arrive once they get the call. That is a long time to be fighting to keep your gun away from a determined gun grab.
 
Tyler, 48, a customer at the gas station, was wearing a gun in a holster, plainly visible, when Smith grabbed the weapon from Tyler during a struggle inside the store and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith, authorities said.
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"During a struggle" puts this story in proper context for discussing open carry verses concealed carry. It does not appear that the gun was simply "snatched from his holster" as the lead paragraph implies. Also chasing someone who just took your only gun seems to have been an unsound tactic.
 
Using a retention holster probably slows down your draw between .25 to .5 seconds (checked this out with trainer buddies) unless you practice thousands of times. It also adds another link in the chain of drawing to screw up.

Police need such as they go H2H with folks quite a bit. A plain old gun carrier average folk probably doesn't. I doubt they do the 1000 reps. to be at speed.

The added them significantly adds to things like the Tueller distance. Remember with folks being set to draw, the attacker can be about 21 ft away and get to you. Add the retention release time and you increase that radius several feet depending on how you calculate it. Some OC folks claim that they have unique situational awareness - well, that needs to be empirically tested. :rolleyes:

So extending the Tueller radius significantly for what benefit of open carry? It has some deterrent benefit but downsides of potential risk. The balance between them is your decision but logic is not usually part of some of the argument.

Ask you a question - a pastor in TX to support the RKBA is wandering around with an AR-15 slung on his back. It's legal. If you were sitting in Starbucks and he walks in - do you yell - Three cheers for the RKBA or figure out what to do when he goes nuts?
 
While I understand your point, Glenn, part of me asks "does it really matter if it's a slung AR-15 as opposed to a holstered SAA?"

And I think my answer to your question would, potentially, be both. And I might keep the corner of my eye on that rifle remaining slung, if I did not know the guy.
 
Unless one is a LEO, chasing a thief while carrying either concealed or open with intent to use it is asking for trouble. In most states, it is also illegal. Use of deadly force or brandishing a weapon by civilians is solely for SD when you fear death or bodily harm. If a thief is running away, that threat is gone.
 
I would keep an eye on a holster SAA in an urban environment also. While I support the RKBA - unusual weapons displays do move you up the color codes.

I've read the police active shooter literature. They worry that a CCW type might be shot in an intervention. We've had officers tell us that a few times they came close to such with some CCW type running towards the scene to save a loved one or to be a hero.

Can you imagine that if we have an active shooter with an AR or a pair of Glocks and then the OC type with such a weapon is part of the melee?

How many times do we hear there are more than one shooter when there isn't?

Enough plain clothes police, even with badges out get shot by uniformed officers in incidents.
 
Using a retention holster probably slows down your draw between .25 to .5 seconds (checked this out with trainer buddies) unless you practice thousands of times. It also adds another link in the chain of drawing to screw up.
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Just like drawing from concealment. Same time frame, same number of repetitions, same possibility of screwing up. Few people bother to get the training and practice that they really need in order to be as realistically capable as an untrained person often believes himself or herself to be.

Every type of carry has a trade-off. Some of the trade-offs are worth it for one person, but not for another. Some of the trade-offs are worth it in some circumstances, but not in other circumstances. The nice thing about living in a free country is that each person is free to make their own trade-offs, and their own decisions, based on their own needs and circumstances.

With a realistic understanding of the benefits and drawbacks of this type of carry, I believe everyone who open carries should use a retention holster. I also believe everyone who open carries should have some basic skills at gun retention. Those basic skills are not difficult to acquire, and they are not difficult to practice. They do, however, require the person involved to take a realistic look at the benefits and trade-offs of their preferred type of carry. A lot of open carry people are simply not willing to admit that there are any trade-offs. This makes it difficult for them to acquire the skills they need in order to reduce the dangers while maximizing the benefits of their preferred carry method.

pax
 
This is where we go back to my stance, which is that while I fully support the right to open carry, I very rarely exercise that right (where it is legal, of course).

Really, I only carry openly when out in the sticks, as a backup hunting weapon or as a critter defense weapon, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've done that.

I used to have a plain jane looking car, when I was in high school, basic 70's family sedan. Of course, that car had a 350 with an Edelbrock 4 barrel, and a heavy shock suspension. It was fast, and it cornered flat... and the Mustang and Camaro drivers never saw it coming. Nor did the police think twice about it.

In a more mature way, I see concealed carry in the same way. It doesn't draw attention that I don't want, and if I ever decide to use it the odds are the BG won't know what hit him.
 
A concealment garment may also slow you a touch. But concealment has it's own advantages. Also, a plug for IDPA where you practice concealment draws quite a bit. The fastest is a hip holster with no concealment and then we debate its other problems.

As far as screwing up a concealment draw versus a retention draw - that's an empirical question. Is manipulating some gadgetry a more accident prone event than sweeping a garment? One might think so - but it's a research question. We do have some folks shooting themselves with retention holsters - do we have similar for garment NDs? Don't know. I've seen some bad stuff with the Serpas. An unskilled shooter had to be grabbed by the SO has he couldn't free his gun and it was getting funky. A well trained shooter was using his new duty holster of that type and could free the gun quickly. Two anecdotes don't make a human factors study though.


As far as estimation of ability, it's pretty well known that the lesser skilled overestimate their ability more.
 
I've learned through practice that there are some cover garments I will not use with some holsters.

For instance, I have a fleece jacket that I love, but it has drawstring cords at 3 and 9 that WILL potentially interfere with the trigger when using a hip holster. I will only wear that jacket with a shoulder holster or belly band.

I have some shirts that work well with my low ride holsters, but not with my high ride holsters, unless I leave at least one bottom button undone.

Practice doesn't only improve speed; it also points out potential, serious issues.
 
Glenn,

I have taught hundreds of people how to use their holsters from concealment. I am here to tell you that using a holster from concealment is the single most dangerous thing that ever happens in any firearms training class. When it is taught correctly, you spend a lot of time in dry fire before you ever allow anyone to load the gun. We do this – why? Because the risk of entanglement, of getting the garment shoved into your holster and caught around your trigger, the risk of getting a zipper pull or an elastic pull caught inside the trigger guard – all of these are non-trivial risks. They are significant.

I have literally lost count of the number of times I have seen firearms get fumbled, juggled, or even dropped during this learning process. It does not happen in every class, because we teach the skill step-by-step. But it does happen, and it happens on a regular basis.

As for speed, my experience has been that for a trained shooter using an open front garment, drawing from concealment typically adds a quarter of a second to the drawing speed. A closed front garment takes a little more time.

Agreed about the Dunning-Kruger Effect. That, too, is a nontrivial problem.

pax
 
Interesting on that. I believe you. I've yet to see a concealment screw up in a match but I don't teach beginners. I'd bet that lots of beginners with Serpas would be scary also.

Worst I've seen is a guy shooting a round a foot from my foot when holstering a 1911 and a guy drawing and throwing his gun down range.

Glad the most dangerous thing I see drawn on is a scantron.

PS - I agree about holster/garment types. Seeing a guy trying to reholster with a collapsible Uncle Mike's under a polo shirt was nasty.
 
While we are focusing on open vs concealed, and whether to use retention devices, we are overlooking one of my personal pet peeves: most of the concealed carriers I know have never really taken a serious class in weapon retention.

I am opposed to mandatory training, as many here will know.

However, if I were setting up a training course for concealed carriers, I would include a section on retention. That would only be an introduction, of course, and actual skill development would require practice, practice, and more practice.

But since the article indicates there was a struggle for the gun, then Tyler lost the struggle, and I wonder if he had ever trained in how to keep his gun before he started open carrying...
 
I'd bet that lots of beginners with Serpas would be scary also.
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Yeah... Just as there are differences between types of cover garments – as MLeake pointed out – there are differences in retention holsters. Drawing from a level III holster is different than drawing from a level II holster. The Serpa has its own set of problems.

pax
 
MLeake,

You might be interested to know that I have begun integrating firearms retention into every Cornered Cat class I teach. It finally occurred to me that telling people they needed the skill was not getting anywhere, because most people have no idea what the skill actually is. Giving them a taste of it inside a class they were going to take anyway seems to provide a better background for people to make their own decisions about where to go next.

pax
 
pax,

happy to hear it.

I've worked with a few friends on some basics, and it's always interesting to watch their eyes open when they see how (relatively) easy it is to stop an untrained person from successfully drawing a weapon.

I have a buddy coming into town this coming weekend for a visit, who wants to go over more retention drills. Sixer has been catching up on a run of holster orders, but says he will be available next weekend. So, that gives me two bodies, and we should be able to alternate between one recording while the other practices.

IE, I hope to put up some short demo videos next week.

Regards,

M
 
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