a little guidance for first time reloader

H

horseman308

New member
I recently got a Pedersoli Sharps in .45-70, and a friend/mentor who was cleaning out some of his stuff gave me a Lee Loader and a box of 300 grain cast lead RNFP bullets. http://leeprecision.com/lee-loader-45-70-govt.html

I've been reading up, and it seems lots of people actually really like the little Lee Loader, especially for beginners. I know it comes with all the basics to size a case neck, decap and prime, charge, seat a bullet, and crimp (if necessary). My intent is to use up these bullets as a learn the process. I've got about 200 of them. I plan to start with smokeless powder and then probably move to black powder once I have a solid handle on the process.

Up to this point the only reloading experience I have is 20+ years in my past running .45acp through my dad's Dillon press after it was all set up. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm a total newbie to reloading cartridges (muzzleloaders I'm good, but this is new territory). So any guidance will be most appreciated. Here's my plan, but please offer guidance, cause I'd like to keep my face and fingers!

1) Get a manual - suggestions?

2) lots of folks suggest IMR 4198(?) or Accurate 5744 loaded to trapdoor springfield pressures (~15k CUP?). I'm open to thoughts. I also will be getting a good digital scale.

3) CCI large rifle primers. Would large pistol work?

4) For cast bullets I believe I need to flare/bell the mouth of the case. Keeping in mind that this thing is hand-held and I don't have a press, what are my options for flaring a case properly? Would a chamfer inside the case mouth work instead? From what I gather, crimping will not be necessary for a single shot rifle, but will the bullets stay seated without?

5) Do I need to lube the cases? If so, with what?

6) Can I get away with cleaning out the primer pocket only, or does it usually require to mess with the flash-hole, too?

7) Since I don't have a tumbler either, can I clean the cases with just powder solvent? I know with blackpowder you can use hot water and a little soap on the insides, but I read somewhere you're not supposed to get the insides of the cases wet with smokeless. Is that true? If so, do I just ream in out with a bronze brush?

I guess that's all I know, or at least all that I'm aware I don't know. Anyway, I'm all ears. The thing seems pretty easy once you have all the stuff, but I don't want to make any mistakes.
 
As a new reloader I would stick to what you find in published data. Lyman's 49th is a great manual filled with useful info.

I don't know much about the 45-70 other than it is a semi straight walled case but it being pretty large some lube would not hurt and may even be required.

I use Royal case lube and it can be whipped off with a cloth.

The primer pocket does not necessarily need cleaning aside from solid debris that would clog the flash hole.
 
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1) Get a manual - suggestions?

2) lots of folks suggest IMR 4198(?) or Accurate 5744 loaded to trapdoor springfield pressures (~15k CUP?). I'm open to thoughts. I also will be getting a good digital scale.

3) CCI large rifle primers. Would large pistol work?

4) For cast bullets I believe I need to flare/bell the mouth of the case. Keeping in mind that this thing is hand-held and I don't have a press, what are my options for flaring a case properly? Would a chamfer inside the case mouth work instead? From what I gather, crimping will not be necessary for a single shot rifle, but will the bullets stay seated without?

5) Do I need to lube the cases? If so, with what?

6) Can I get away with cleaning out the primer pocket only, or does it usually require to mess with the flash-hole, too?

7) Since I don't have a tumbler either, can I clean the cases with just powder solvent? I know with blackpowder you can use hot water and a little soap on the insides, but I read somewhere you're not supposed to get the insides of the cases wet with smokeless. Is that true? If so, do I just ream in out with a bronze brush?
Click to expand...

1) Lyman 49
2) re7
3) large rifle only
4) I can't say for sure.....try it.
5) yes, I use Honady case lube rubbed into an ribs pad.
6) Neither one is important in 45-70
7)
 
I can't really comment on the use of the Lee Reloader but think it would be difficult with the .45-70. But:
1) Lyman 49th as already suggested.
2) I assume you want to go light on the loadings and would highly suggest Trail Boss powder. Should you decide to do that, ask about using it.
3) CCI large primers are fine; some have reported they use large pistol primers.
4) Yes cast bullets really do need a flare and just a basic chamfer may not suffice; could still crush cases or shear bullets. A standard die set for the .45-70 would normally come with a flaring die. Otherwise the Lyman M flaring die for the caliber will do the job. Some crimp should be applied but at least remove the flare with a taper crimp. But you say you have the basic Lee Reloader and I don't know what that can do.
5) Yes definitely lube.,
6) Can get by without cleaning primer pockets.
7) Other means can be used to clean the cases; don't really need a tumbler.

OTHER: Suggest acquire at least a good single stage press for that job if you don't have one; will make it much easier. Then about all that are needed would be a die set and shell holder. Confirm that the die set comes with a flaring die. If not, also get the Lyman M flaring die. But I know nothing about the basic Lee, but do load the .45-70. It seems that you do other loading so probably have other essential tools.

The above comments are rather brief and not intended to cover it in detail, but enough perhaps to require some additional thinking for loading the .45-70.
 
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This is a follow up for my suggestion in post #4 for Trail Boss powder if you should opt for using it. TB is a light fluffy fast burning grey powder that was developed for reduced loads and often referred to as loadings for cowboy action shooting. It was initially distributed by IMR but now by Hodgdon. It comes in the standard one pound powder can but only holds nine ounces (also available in five pound cans). The labels show two or three mounted riders coming up a trail. Loading manuals, including the Lyman 49th, show very little data for TB, and nothing for the .45-70. However, here is Hodgdon's formula for determining starting and max loads.

Determine which bullet is to be used, and bullet weight does not matter, and then mark on the outside of an empty case where the base of the bullet will be when seated. Filled with TB to that point will be the max load. Next weight that charge and reduce it to 70% for the starting load. If max weight were 20 grains, starting weight would be 14 grains. Load a few like that but suggest not too many since you will probably want to start working up immediately and not stopping until arriving at max at the base of the bullet. This will result in a very comfortable and mild load that is far from the real thing. After establishing a baseline load, the powder scale can be set aside for future use and powder drop accomplished simply by eyeballing. Note that TB powder is not all that readily available in some areas. Seems to be more available in the east than in the west. Powder cost can vary but typical gun show price is usually around $20 for a nine ounce can.

If you were to order .45-70 loading dies, it appears from the MidwayUSA catalog that all three die set brands include a flaring expander die, but most do not include a shell holder that must be ordered separately. I guess that I am doubtful that your basic Lee loader can do a respectable job with the .45-70.
 
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I love my Lee Loaders! First one came to me in 1969 and since I have acquired 4 more along with my 4 presses and 1.75 tons of dies, measures, tools, etc.

Welcome to the wonderful, often frustrating and confusing world of reloading!

Get a couple manuals first plus a good text to add to your library; The ABCs of Reloading. This is a "How To" text about all aspects of reloading your own ammo. Lyman's 49th and the ABCs will answer all your questions including recommended powder, and primers. Stick with what is in your manual and ignore any load data from forum experts, range rats, gun counter clerks, pet loads web sites, "lots of folks", and gun shop gurus.

Some lube on your cases may help sizing but it is not necessary. The Lee Loader's instructions will settle this. Flash holes? Not an issue. Primer pocket cleaning? Rarely an issue. I have been reloading 30 years and do not clean primer pockets. I do not deburr flash holes (with the exception of my .308 brass and have a bunch of time on my hands [bored!] then I'll play around and mebbe deburr and clean pockets). I have not had any issues with mis-seated primers if I do my part.

I reloaded 12 years before I got a tumbler and I just wiped each case with a mineral spirits dampened rag. No ruined dies, and I could spot any defects. Don't bother with brushing ID of the cases, not worth the effort (meaning you will prolly never see any difference in your reloads).

Yep, 99% of lead bullets need cases flared to get clean, straight seating without shaving lead.

Some of your questions are "they said" "some folks", and "supposed to", but I think for reloading ferget all that and go with what info you find in a published text/manual.

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun...
 
Used a Lee Loader for my Great BP Cartridge Experiment, of long ago. Worked just fine for reloading. The Experiment didn't. Long, sad, story involving BP and a Trap Door Carbine. Trap Door Carbines do not use 70 grains of BP. Hurts to shoot a TD Carbine loaded with 70 grains of BP. No internet in them days. Not many books about TD's either. TD Carbines uses 55 grains of BP. sniff.
Anyway. I strongly suggest you buy a scale and throw those daft scoops away, first. The scoops are calibrated, for some idiotic reason known only to Lee, in CC's. CC's are not used in reloading and are a metric unit of liquid volume.
1) The Lyman manual is by far the most versatile manual. Has more loads with more powders and bullet weights than any bullet or powder makers book. Those are fine except they only have data for their products.
2) Starting loads of IMR4198 are running at 15,500 CUP according to Hodgdon's site's Trap Door loads. Lots of 300 grain cast bullet data there.
3) Large rifle only. A large pistol is physically smaller in height and diameter(not by much though). http://ballistictools.com/articles/primer-pocket-depth-and-diameter.php
4) No chamfering. Case is too thin anyway. Chamfering is done with bottle necked cases and replaces the flaring done to straight walled cases.
5) No lubing step in the Lee Loader instructions.
6) Usually just the pocket and the flash hole only if it needs it.
7) Smokeless cases can be wet cleaned. There are kits and assorted solutions for that. Bit of a nuisance though. Trick is using a cookie sheet(a real one or a foil one from a dollar store) and your oven set on the lowest temperature to dry 'em. Takes about 15 minutes in a "Warm/Minimum' oven. Gloves to handle hot cases.
 
best advice

Here's the best advice of all, if it is possible. First, get the Lyman manual, and more importantly, ask your father to help and teach you. It is a win-win, if it can be done.
 
Entering into an unknown field, the OP's questions were well thought out and the replies were quite consistent. Probably the best advice was the lack of specific loading recommendations that he didn't ask for. Since he has experience with a Dillon, although the model not mentioned, that could possibly be used if need be for the .45-70 project. If the Dillon is a 550, a caliber conversion kit, a tool head, the powder die, along with loading dies would complete the setup. I do use a 550 for the .45-70 but put through only only one cartridge at a time due to cramped space with the large case.
 
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Thanks for all the replies. They mostly confirmed a lot of what I suspected. Lyman's 49th is on the reading list. A press will be on the list down the road, but the .45-70 is the only thing I need to reload at the moment. I would have been glad to get my Dad to teach me, but he lives 700 miles away and no longer has his equipment. Very foolishly, I turned down his offer to give me one of his Dillon progressive presses a few years ago when he was downsizing. I lived in a small apartment and had no where to put it. One of the dumber decisions of my shooting career for sure :-( So he gave them both to a friend of his.

Live and learn I guess.
 
Horseman, since you are loading in a stout falling block action, something you might try is simply hand seating bullets and crimping them without first sizing the case. Sometimes this works with cartridges fired in the same chamber. Depending on how generous the chamber is, I find that thumb seating bullets works sometimes. Bullet tension and crimp are not as important in a breach loading single shot as they are for a cartridge to be fed from a tubular magazine.

Its easy enough to see if this will work... take an empty fired in your rifle in your right hand, a bullet in your left, and see what sort of fit you get in the neck.

That's one of the nice features of the 45-70. Ability to thumb seat. It may be that the as fired diameter of your cases is too large to accept a bullet without it falling down into the cartridge. I doubt you will find that it is too small to accept a bullet in an as fired case.

I really like the performance of the AA5744, but it is some really dirty powder.

If you are ready to make the jump to black powder, and skipping the smokeless altogether, I find that a proper charge of black, followed by a milk jug wad, perhaps a handmade compression plug made of a proper diameter bolt and two nuts to lock your adjustment in place, and then thumb seat your bullet firmly on the powder stack, and you may be pretty much set. Only thing is that bullet lube becomes very important with black, and the lube which typically comes with commercially cast bullets will be hard blue wax, not at all well suited for that propellant.

If you are using your Lee Loader, after arriving at your powder/wad stack height to align the crimping groove in your bullet with the case mouth, a couple whacks with a mallet on the crimping shoulder and you are set.

Cleaning the cases after black is a soap and water proposition... they will be ugly, but they will be clean.

An option not requiring a significant investment in tools. And black is a more forgiving propellant provided that you don't leave any air gaps between the bullet and powder stack. Conceivably all the tools you would need would be your Lee Whack a Mole, and a modified case to serve as your powder measure. At some time branch out into a bullet mould and some SPG lube for pan lubing, and you will be set for a minimal investment in tools. -There is more than one reason a black powder cartridge works best with black powder.
 
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Thanks Stubbicat. I am leaning toward black. I've been a flintlock shooter for several years, so it doesn't scare me to use. My hesitation here is only the prospect of load development and getting the right lube made. The bullets I was given have only one lube groove (and a couple of smaller crimping grooves), so I wondered if I would have to use a grease cookie or something similar. When you mention milk jug was, are you talking plastic or waxed paper carton? What about using the backing on a notepad? I wasn't sure about putting plastic in the barrel and thought the fiberboard might be better.
 
You are on good historical ground with the Lee loader kit. THe Buffalo hunters of old would reload their cartridges with tools similar to the Lee Loader.

To answer your question specifically,
1) Get a manual - suggestions?
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ABC's of Reloading. No loading data, but lots of dexcription of the loading process. I am told the older editions are better than the newer, so check your local library.
2) lots of folks suggest IMR 4198(?) or Accurate 5744 loaded to trapdoor springfield pressures (~15k CUP?). I'm open to thoughts. I also will be getting a good digital scale.
Click to expand...
My vote is for a balance beam scale. No electronic device I know of is as reliable as gravity. Count this as a prejudice if you like, for digital scales are fast and convenient and many are accurate and reliable, but the cheaper ones are subject to electomagnetic interference (from flourescent lights, electric motors, tec) and battery or line voltage variations.

Powder choices for your trapdoor will require careful observation of the operating pressures. Modern powders are not unsafe, but just be careful.

3) CCI large rifle primers. Would large pistol work?
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very likely would work, but be aware that rifle primers are made of tougher metal intended for higher internal pressure. This means that the pistol primers, being struck y a firing pin set up for rifle primers may be taking a harder hit than it can stand. A pierced primer can vent hot gasses back which can dust your face and actually cook the temper out of a firing pin.

I have no idea of the strength of your rifle's strike, so if it could produce a problem. I would use the Rifle primers and only switch to the pistol primers if I get misfires due to light strikes.

I hope someone more acquainted with the modern trapdoor replicas can correct (or confirm) my conceptions.

4) For cast bullets I believe I need to flare/bell the mouth of the case. Keeping in mind that this thing is hand-held and I don't have a press, what are my options for flaring a case properly? Would a chamfer inside the case mouth work instead? From what I gather, crimping will not be necessary for a single shot rifle, but will the bullets stay seated without?
Click to expand...
I believe some kits have a flaring tool in the kit. But the picture you linked to does not appear to have one. If it does, just use it gently so you don't deform/crush the case mouth. Chanmfering the case mouth helps starting the bullet into the case. You will see pretty quickly with the first bullet you seat how much flare and chamfer affects the insertion of the bullet. Some bullets are bevelled at the rear; these are simplicity itself.

5) Do I need to lube the cases? If so, with what?
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Lube will make ti easier sizing the cases, but with neck-sizing only, is not actually necessary (I am told). With the tool steel of the Lee kit, I would probably use a little.

I use carbide dies in a press, so do not have a recommendation as to brand.

6) Can I get away with cleaning out the primer pocket only, or does it usually require to mess with the flash-hole, too?
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In all my loading I have only ever cleaned a few primer pockets or flash holes. It is an additional step that can yield benefits, but few have been able to quantify those benefits. However, once a batch of cartridges have all had their flash holes and primer pockets uniformed you will not have to worry about it again. Cleaning primer pockets has never been a concern to me either, but if you want to do it, it doesn't hurt.


7) Since I don't have a tumbler either, can I clean the cases with just powder solvent? I know with blackpowder you can use hot water and a little soap on the insides, but I read somewhere you're not supposed to get the insides of the cases wet with smokeless. Is that true? If so, do I just ream in out with a bronze brush?
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For years, I cleaned my brass with terrycloth, undershirt material or paper towels. My brass looked grungy, but shot well. I just made sure there was no grit on them. A few years ago, a shooting buddy got me a tumbler as a gift. My brass looks prettier now, but shoots just the same.

If you wet tumble or wash your brass, all you need to do is rinse well and make sure the brass is dry. If you rinse with water near the boiling point, spread the brass out front of a fan, it will be dry inside and out pretty quick. Some people leave their brass in a low oven. Even 120-140 degrees Fahrenheit will evaporate water after a couple hours.

ANY water inside your cartridge will wreak havoc with your propellant.

Lost Sheep
 
Horseman, I have used the waxed cardboard, and also tablet backing wads. I can't tell a difference in performance. As far as load development with black powder, it is a little different than smokeless.

I like the Old Eynesford 1.5F for 45-70. I also prefer heavier bullets, a 510 grain round nose is a good choice. In a sense, the variables are fewer with black, once you have chosen your bullet and powder and wad. Near as I can tell primers are pretty much all the same. You may find that primer choice is more important than I have. Really, the only variable is powder amount. Of course powder quantity also brings compression and "drop tubing" into play.

Said differently, once the outside dimensions of your cartridge are arrived at... you know what your overall length is going to be, if you choose to crimp. Lube is easy... just buy SPG. It is relatively inexpensive and it works fine for black as well as smokeless. I pan lube my bullets, it is easy, no hassle, and it works just fine. In your case you can put your bullets on a paper towel on a cookie sheet or similar, place them in the oven at 200 degrees or so, melt the old blue wax out, and pan lube your bullets with SPG. Lube issue fixed. :)

Since I don't use commercially cast bullets I don't know what's available, but softer alloy is better accuracy wise. I use 30-1 alloy. Just enough tin to get a good fill.

Measure the depth of your seated bullet base in the cartridge, and place a mark using a sharpie around the case neck, and add powder until it comes to this point. I'll gently tap the cartridge until the powder settles to the line on the case, add a little more, tap, etc., to get a powder amount. Set your powder measure to dispense this quantity for subsequent cartridges. Add a wad, and seat the bullet. This is the minimum powder charge you want. The wad will compress the powder just enough that seating the bullet removes all air gaps in the cartridge. You may be able to add up to 5 more grains of powder, but you will need to find a means of compressing the charge at that point, as the bullet seating method of compression will deform your bullet if there is more powder. Also I have found that the loose fouling which makes repeated shots more easy is achieved at pretty much the minimal amount of powder that will fit in the case to the base of the bullet. If I add more powder and compress it, I find rough hard crusty fouling in the bore.

Hint: I use 57 grains OE, CCI primer, Starline brass, Hoch 510 round nose bullet, a slight taper crimp. You will likely need more powder for the shorter 300 grain bullets.

Lube cookies may be useful for you. I haven't found them helpful. If you add a cookie, you will factor the thickness of the cookie into your powder stack height variable. So long as the fouling stays loose and moist you are going to be fine. I still like to wipe between shots, but I can shoot several without wiping using these cartridges.

You may find that your rifle likes those bullets, but I think they are too light for my tastes.

Have fun, and keep 'em up the middle. :)
 
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Thanks Stubi. I certainly intend to go with heavier bullets at some point, but I figure that 250 free bullets shouldn't go to waste, even if they're on the light side!
 
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