A "Gun Control" advocate finally gets it...

johnelmore

New member
I never thought I would see the day when a "gun control" advocate finally does their homework and sees the light. This article is suggested reading:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...8c702d2d975_story.html?utm_term=.1a8eda102cf4

After the author does her homework she concludes that only through "narrowly tailored interventions" can the problem of violence be solved and rejects broad-based measures such as outright bans. In this case, her conclusions were:

1) Greater access to mental healthcare is needed especially for older males

2) At risk women who are endangered by specific individuals need to be prioritized by police.

3) Gang intervention.
 
Very interesting.

As surprising as it is to see an anti-gun person achieve a modicum of enlightenment, it's even more surprising that the Washington Post would print it.
 
Congrats, a minor victory for the truth. I’m surprised she didn’t include pre-adulthood bullying, which appears to be a factor in many of the mass shootings.
 
I honestly thought the editor might pull this article when they finally realized this doesnt fit with the usual reasoning found in that publication and I wouldnt be surprised if this article suddenly disappears.

One thing I wanted to point out is gang related deaths. In Chicago alone this year there have been 526 deaths mostly related to gang activity.

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2017-chicago-murders

Clearly, gang violence is pandemic. Lets say there were no firearms and all we had was swords and knives. I bet that gang murders would still be at these high levels. Im hoping that President Trump will be good to his word and send federal assistance to Chicago. The death toll this year in Chicago is greater than all the hurricanes and it all goes back to gang violence. Diane Feinstein probably wouldnt walk around these dangerous Chicago neighborhoods without carrying herself.
 
It is an interesting article, and does seem to show a lean toward common sense not often exhibited by the anti-gun folks. Maybe I'm too cynical, but the devil is in the details.

Almost no proposed restriction would make it meaningfully harder for people with guns on hand to use them.
From the oppositions' perspective, that is an easy fix... no more guns on hand, and I can easily see it being interpreted that way.

Women endangered by specific men need to be prioritized by police, who can enforce restraining orders prohibiting these men from buying and owning guns.
Again the answer is to deny an individual's right to ownership. Not that I'm opposed to that when it is warranted as it often is, but who will decide when that is truly the case?

The same kind of thing with the young men who are possible gang members, it's all about disarming each group that the article touches on.

I get the idea that this is an article that exhibits some glimmer of hope or reason from the opposition, but I'm skeptical at best, sorry.
 
There used to be a very extensive network of mental health hospitals in the United States, but for various reasons, its a much smaller network today. Right around the late 60s is when most of these places closed and thats when the murder rate seemed to skyrocket. Another factor was the death of J Edgar Hoover. Although a clearly controversial figure who made some questionable decisions he was very tough on organized and gang based crime. Maybe even a bit tougher than the law allowed him to be. Whatever his methods he was clearly very effective and the crime rate was relatively low before his death.

I believe a very aggressive mental health system and law enforcement focus on gangs/organized crime would greatly lower the rate of violent incidents.
 
There used to be a very extensive network of mental health hospitals in the United States, but for various reasons, its a much smaller network today.

If I'm not mistaken, it was Jimmy Carter who de-institutionalized the marginally insane in the 1970s.
 
As surprising as it is to see an anti-gun person achieve a modicum of enlightenment, it's even more surprising that the Washington Post would print it.
My thoughts when reading it this morning, as well.
The headline and source, paired, where enough to raise an eyebrow and make me want to see when the twist and hidden agenda would come through.
But it didn't.
 
There used to be a very extensive network of mental health hospitals in the United States, but for various reasons, its a much smaller network today. Right around the late 60s is when most of these places closed and thats when the murder rate seemed to skyrocket.

That was due to medicare and medicaid in 1965 that excluded mental hospitals from its funding.

Not to worry. We are now back down to 1950s and 1960s murder rates today.

If I'm not mistaken, it was Jimmy Carter who de-institutionalized the marginally insane in the 1970s.

I don't think so. https://sfhomelessproject.com/did-t...pitals-contribute-to-homelessness-1bbe5d32e2a http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/timeline-mental-health-america/ Besides, that would have been in the late 70s after the murder rate had increased.
 
Couple of points: deinstitutionalization was largely driven by multiple ACLU suits, raising thresholds for being detained or held for evaluation and changes in effective thresholds for committal. There was a public outcry too: Geraldo Rivera cut his TV journalism teeth with series of exposees on wilobrook in NY, which was medieval in its conditions.

It is also relevant because most other western democracies to which we are compared have lower thresholds, the decision being able to be made at lower levels of authority and expertise, slightly or substantially longer initial hold times, to outright wider definitions of who can be committed. In fact most other developed democracies have subtle but often important differences in (read less) equivalent first, forth and fifth amendment rights compared to the US. I was a manager of an international news organization and we saw quite a few cases of news organizaions with an international footprint where venues "shopped" or chosen by plaintiffs outside of the Us whenever possible. If you could get it in the UK, you did, and anywhere was better than the US because of stronger US first amendment protections. There are also often broader types of evidence from items found with or without warrant. Even double jeopardy protection is not the same in many other countries.

There is something else complex with mental health and guns that is not brought up, but similar to the restraining order conundrum I note below: will "good intention" law, regulations or practices bring unintended consequences that make it worse?

For example anything lower than adjudicated mentally ill presents a problem. it seems logical to limit access to guns for someone undergoing depression, anxiety, anger or impose control. But the thing is, what if somehow recording that, and using that to limit rights, then deters some people from pursuing mental health care or counseling?

Are we going to end up with people who have chronic depression, or temporary severe depression avoiding seeking care or counseling because they can be put on a rights denial list?

2) At risk women who are endangered by specific individuals need to be prioritized by police.

This is a tough one also in danger of unintended consequence.

On balance most people know why restraining orders would be awarded at lower probative burdens than criminal cases. Most sensible people want to make it a low financial burden, and low probative burden for an abused or threatened woman to get an order. We may want hearsay to be allowed, other evidence allowed that would not normally be allowed, and preponderance v reasonable doubt, and in fact a hearing before something less than a judge to expedite a protection order.


The problems on the other side of the balance are two I can see, the first somewhat problematic, the second much more so:
a) are we enabling many groundless restraining orders that are tactics in contentious separations/divorces. There are law journals that estimate 80% to 90% of these order are bogus or simply tactics in some other dispute.

b) can the target of the order lose constitutional rights that would otherwise require criminal justice level adjudication to lose? eg second amendment rights. Is the order itself a pejorative in any other way?

It is a really difficult question. Because if jurisdictions have very low thresholds to get restraining orders, but also pass laws allowing for bars on possession of firearms or confiscation on those low thresholds, we could end in spiral of this being used illegitimately, more and more often.
 
Gun owner or people who care are not anti gun.

They are anti violence.

The extremists from one side have pushed forth extremist from the other side.
 
Brother, I hate to tell you this but I suspect that the majority of the anti-gunners "get it". GUN Control is an agenda based on alot more than simply a refusal to accept the pro 2nd amendment positions.

When people don't like guns, don't understand guns, are afraid of guns, don't want you to have a gun and attach emotion to issue.. its not about trying to convince them that they are wrong. They probably do not care if they are right or wrong.. they may simply want to get rid of the thing that is causing them distress and getting rid of the GUN is what they believe will make them "feel" better. With many of them its not about truth, facts or self defense... its about emotion.
 
For example anything lower than adjudicated mentally ill presents a problem. it seems logical to limit access to guns for someone undergoing depression, anxiety, anger or impose control. But the thing is, what if somehow recording that, and using that to limit rights, then deters some people from pursuing mental health care or counseling?

And here, I'd already think twice about seeking help for mental problems from the state, as the police have recently started writing to your doctor before granting or renewing gun licences asking if there is any mental problem he has been treating you for recently. Many doctors refuse to reply - not because they think it's unethical but because they say they have conscientious objections to gun ownership.
 
Gang intervention
I hear about this, but what would it look like?..... Felujah?
Actually, no. We had a wonderful initiative called Operation Ceasefire (not to be confused with a contemporary gun-control group called Ceasefire). There's a summary of it here. They used advice from social scientists, doctors, clergy and local community figures, and yes, some gang members. It came to be called the "Boston Miracle" because it verifiably reduced youth homicide by 63% in the city. When the same program was rolled out in Gary, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and several other cities, similar results were reported.

All that without banning a single gun.

Sadly, it cost money, it didn't make for a good enough 10-second media soundbite, and some folks just assumed the problem was fixed, so several of those cities gradually defunded or discontinued it. The same idea is still being practiced in many places, and it still gets results.

And here's the important thing. With Ceasefire and its variants, we saw empirical, provable, and significant reductions in homicide. Compare that with the tortured and slanted statistics gun-control advocates trot out to show their law might have caused a 0.002% drop in homicides in one town for a period of six weeks. Yeah.

Anyone who tells us that gun control is the only answer is flatly lying. They have all been informed of alternative programs like Ceasefire; they just choose to ignore them in favor of "let's ban X!"
 
Beware enemies bearing you what appear to be gifts.

The opposition knows very well how to redefine words to their advantage, embed lies inside truths, misdirect, and in all other relevant ways bamboozle.

Caveat emptor.
 
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