A FUDisim, Prisoner escapeing?

M

Mordwyn.45

New member
I saw something last night that made me pause and contemplate the possibilities of something like this happening. That such contemplations take place is the true value of FUD’s posts. He at least makes me think, “What if?” which makes me better prepared on the street.

I had to take my girlfriend to the ER this AM as she was suffering from sharp pains in her ribcage and we were concerned that the chest cold she just got over may have turned into something worse. It turned out that it is just a slight case of Bronchitis and there is nothing to worry about.

While sitting in the ER cubical I saw two corrections officers transporting a prisoner back to the county facility after some sort of medical treatment.
One officer was armed and the other wasn’t, and the question popped into my head, “what would I or could I do if this prisoner made a move and managed to snatch this CO’s weapon?” the pair were no more than 15-20 ft away from me and the prisoner was cuffed and was wearing leg chains but his wrists weren’t restricted to his sides by a “shackle belt” and I was unaware of any chain linking the handcuffs to the leg chains, restricting the movement of the prisoners arms, they were just cuffed in front of him.
It would not have been impossible for the prisoner to, with a moment’s inattention by the CO, have snatched the officers’ revolver from his holster, to then force him at gunpoint to unlock his cuffs and chains, making his escape

For all you Florida CCW’s or LEOs what is your opinion as to what my legal standpoint would be if I engaged the prisoner at gunpoint in such a situation? Once I determined that the prisoner was armed and attempting escape, would you just shoot, or would a warning be needed? How should you interpret your “obligation to retreat” as set forth in the Fl CCW statute, or would this fall under the “Strong Arm Felony” side of the Fl statute. How do you interpret that aspect of the Fl state law?

Just food for thought, I’d also be curious as to how other states legal statutes might look at this as well

Rob


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"TANSTAAFL"- R.A. Heinlen

"Molon Labe"- Leonidas to Xerxes at Thermopile
 
I think unless he started fireing I would leave well enough alone.Lawers cost a lot of money and not spent unless it a clearcut case of saving a life.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
First off Mordwyn.45, let me thank you for your kind words -- I appreciate the fact that you consider my posts as having value to them (recent comments made by some members had me wondering about that).

With regard to your question, my understanding is that you can use deadly force in coming to someone's aid if a felony is being committed against that person (assualt with a deadly weapon, rate, kidnapping, etc. -- not the thief of personal property such as a car, TV, etc.).

Given the situation that you outlined, I don't know if using deadly force on your part would be legally justified unless someone else's life was in danger from the prisoner (meaning he attempted to shoot the LEOs or others in the area). I'm not a lawyer or an LEO so I can't be certain but I wouldn't bring a gun into play unless someone's safety was threatened otherwise you might have one LEO thanking you one day while the next day another LEO might come around to put the cuffs on you for committing some firearm related crime.

Again, thanks for your words of support. FUD.
 
Pointing a gun at someone is considered assault with a deadly weapon, whether the gun is fired or not.

Give a command to drop the weapon, and if he doesn't, shoot the bastid.

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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 45King:
Pointing a gun at someone is considered assault with a deadly weapon, whether the gun is fired or not.

Give a command to drop the weapon, and if he doesn't, shoot the bastid.

[/quote]


Agreed.


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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"
 
My wife used to work the ER in a hospital. One day a prisoner escaped the two police officers who had escorted him to the ER. There ensued a pursuit through the ground floor of the facility with the officers spraying OC at the fleeing felon as if chasing a fly with Raid.

The air-handling system picked up the OC and spread the capsicum throughout the lower level of the hospital. Twenty-six people were admitted to the emergency room and four, including the admitting supervisor, spent the night in ICU due to allergic reaction to the OC spray.

A good lesson learned by officers on the use of OC in closed environments?
No.
Two weeks later a similar incident occurred and two people wound up in ICU. Not as many people were effected on this ocassion, because hospital staff evacuated as many people as possible and shut down the AC system.

I would think that a 6-Cell Assault Flashlight delivering blunt trauma would be a more appropriate way of dealing with an escapee in a soft environment like a hospital.
But, no one died, and blunt trauma might have caused lasting permanent injury to the escapee (including death), so I GUESS they did good??? Maybe further MA training in compliance techniques for officers transporting prisoners is in order?

William
 
William, it could be that those officer's department has them so hobbled with use of force policies that the only weapon they are allowed to use in that situation is pepper gas. In LA, we all saw what can happen to officers even when they do use authorized weapons and even when they use a lesser degree of force than they probably should have.

As for the topic starter, here in Oklahoma, there is nary a hospital that I have seen that does not have signs prohibiting guns within the buildings. Secondly, state law explicitly allows CCW holders to use their firearm in defense of themselves, immediate family members, employers, and employees. Thirdly, state law allows citizens to carry weapons and assist officers if they are requested to do so, and are willing to do so. So, if the incident took place in Oklahoma, the only time(probably) that one would be LEGALLY armed in a hospital and not guilty of a trespass, would be if the officer first requested that you enter the hospital armed in order to assist him.

Besides, if the inmate is a jail inmate, you have no idea why he is in jail. It could be, if it were still 1994, that he is awaiting trial for driving down a street within 1000 feet of a school with a gun in his car. Or, perhaps he is a police officer awaiting trial on federal civil rights violation charges because he violated a serial killers rights when the serial killer tried to escape in a hospital and the officer beat him into submission with a three cell maglight instead of using department approved OC. Hardly Death Penalty offenses I'm thinking. In today's legal environment, you never really know at a glance who is the villian and who is the victim.
 
Here in TX we arent allowed to have a CCW inside hospitals. I think they fear that people might commit suicide and then the hospital would not be able to charge for the extra week. As such I could not render aid even if I wanted to. If all the guy wanted to do was run, even if I could legally carry, I would let him go. Only if he threatened to kill people would I act.
 
Taz,

It IS legal to carry a concealed handgun in a hospital in Texas UNLESS the hospital has posted the CORRECT sign at the entrance.


SECTION 27.

Section 46.035, Penal Code, is amended by adding Subsection (i) to read
as follows:

i.Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor
was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

This section was added at the last moment on the floor of the Senate
just before passage, but it has an enormous effect. The specified
subsections refer to a hospital/nursing home, an amusement park, a
church/synagogue, and a "meeting of a government entity", respectively.
If the owners of these premises choose to not provide notice of the
prohibition against carry of handguns by CHL holders in the same
manner mandated by PC 30.06, then the prohibition does not apply.
That means that a CHL holder cannot be prosecuted for the offense.
 
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