A few revolver questions for this newbie.

P

posigian

New member
In February I purchased my first handgun. A used S&W 686+. A great gun and tons of fun. But I now have a couple questions.

1) I recently shot some reloads that left my gun really dirty. Both on the inside and out. Do I need to or is there any reason I should open the side plate to clean inside the area around the triger/action?

Will it hurt if I spray some cleaner in there?

2)Having athritis (did I spell that right) in my hands, I often wish the trigger was not so hart to operate towards the end of a day at the range or IDPA match. Will a "trigger/action job" help? What exactly is a "trigger/action job" and what might it cost?

3)On the outside of and around the breach end of the barrel gets real dirty after a day of shooting. Am I going to do harm to the barrel in anyway if I was to use a brass cleaning brush to scrub it clean.

Thank you for taking the time to read all of this and for any help you might be able to offer.

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Posigian
posigian@provide.net
I AM THE NRA
 
I do not believe it is necessary to open up the plate. It will not hurt anything, but I would watch for springloaded pieces poping out. If you are concered, then perhapes spraying in some gun scrubber would be easier than taking it apart.

As for he trigger job, I believe mostly this refers to making the action smoother, but you can have them lighten the hammer spring, making it easier to pull the hammer back, in turn making the trigger pull for the DA easier.

As for cleaning, usually I soak the end and then use a brass brush. I do not believe this does any damage.
Hope this helps.
 
Brass, bronze or stainless will all work on your M686 without fear of scratching the stainless. For normal maintenance, you need not worry about cleaning up the insides. Taking off the sideplate is something that takes care, if done improperly you can bend or deform the sideplate, making it hard to get back to it's original fit.
.......SmithNut
 
My mother has arthritis as well, and found it impossible to pull the trigger of her S&W more than 3 times or so. I asked the EXTREMELY helpful gunshop owner I frequent what he suggested, and he offered to lighten the trigger pull for $20. He did, and now Mom can pull the trigger with ease. He's a Glock armourer, so it's not like he didn't know his way around a pistol. I highly recomend looking into it. A "trigger job" is much more involved, hence more expensive.

I'm kinda new to "Wolff springs", but maybe they would have a lighter hammer spring that would work for you. You just have to make sure you test fire your gun extensively afterward. Too light, and you risk a "light strike" on the primer... hence, no !bang!.

As for the side plate, I've taken it off several revolvers, but I'm fairly mechanically inclined, and you gotta be careful not to lose any springs, levers, etc... and you have to be careful to put everything back where it goes. If you're not sure of your ability... don't!

One more thing... On cleaning, purchase the proper tools for the job! Get a can of "Outer's Gun Scrubber" if you like spray cleaners, or purchase a pistol cleaning kit from Wallyworld or elsewhere that will get you started on the right track. They usually come with instructions.

Take care... be safe.

[This message has been edited by Onslaught (edited August 22, 2000).]
 
Please be extremely careful with "lightening" actions, either through spring clipping, aftermarket springs (ala Wolf), or any other modifications (turning out the strain screw). When lightening up the action, you run the risk of making your piece unreliable from an ignition standpoint, making your ammo selection extremely important. Yes, you can do some good with replacing the springs. But, don't go too far just because you have less strength in your fingers. It just isn't worth it. An action that is light but doesn't make the cartridge go "bang" isn't much good to you. Remember, in stress you will have more strength than you will probably need, adrenalin has a way of helping out. If you just need a "little" help, take a screw driver and turn the screw in the front strap of the gripframe out (counter-clockwise) between 1/2 and 1 full turn. You will see the difference. And it won't cost you $20. This is the famous "poor man's Smith and Wesson" action job. Lot's of folks do this, some go too far and get the action messed up and really get poor ingition. Just like spending $20 to get that "light" trigger pull, I have seen guys come in to the shop and pay $50 to "fix" their guns (the gunsmith turns the screw all the way in, and voila, fixed action, $50 please!). I only mention this because you don't need to go to the extent of replacing the springs with Wolf units, if all you are interested in is lightening up the action "a tad". Either way, you can go too far, only the screw doesn't cost that much in terms of time, gunsmithing expense or energy. BTW, I don't usually recommend this. I think a properly done action job (smoother action) is far superior to lighter springs. After experimenting, test the piece with your selected carry ammo to ensure it still works. Hint: use Federal ammo, they have the softest primers and will usually worked with a lightened action. .......SmithNut
 
GREETINGS! This is my first post since registering 2 weeks ago. My, how time flies. Smithnut is right, it is too easy to mess up your gun by trying to perform some action jobs yourself. As stated before, an Action Job is really just honing and polishing the surfaces that the trigger, and sometimes the hammer, rubs against as it rotates. When done properly, this gives a notable difference in the feel of the pull; it feels lighter, but really is just smoother. This should be the first thing to cosider, as it does not effect ignition,until you start altering the performance of the springs by cutting, changing, ect. Hope all of this helps, and is not too confusing.
 
Posigan,

1. You're probably noticing a lot of carbon staining on the stainless steel that will be very difficult to get off with regular solvent.

You need "Lead Away" cloths for that. These remove carbon fouling and lead deposits very nicely. Just do NOT use them on blued guns!

As for the sideplate, you really only need to remove and clean under there every couple thousand rounds. The beauty of a revolver action is that it is almost totally sealed against carbon fouling and other associated dirt.

I would not shoot cleaner in there. The only thing you're going to do is move existing dirt around, and likely remove all traces of lubrication.

Taking the sideplate off, though, isn't all that hard, and you don't need to disassemble the action to clean in there with the side plate off.

Simply remove the grips, then remove the screws in the sideplate one at a time (keep them in order!).

Then, hold the gun in your off hand, topstrap and sights toward your thumb. With your thumb, gently restrain the sideplate, but don't press down on it.

Then, with a wooden hammer handle, nylon or rawhide mallet, or lead bar, sharply and squarely rap the middle of the grip frame (the sides, not the front or rear of the grip).

Several whacks may be necessary, but the sideplate will "pop up" and can then be removed. Make sure you do this over a padded are or carpeted floor! If you drop the sideplate on concrete, you can warp it or really bugger it up.

Also, NEVER try to pry the sideplate off. It will warp.

There is one loose piece in there that you need to watch for, and you really should havea disassembly diagram for that.

With the sideplate off, you can blow it out with Gunscrubber or some other cleaner, and then let it dry. Then, apply oil and/or grease so that you get a nice covering over everything.

To really properly grease the action (I prefer grease, as it doesn't migrate out of the action) you should disassemble the gun.

When you're putting the side plate back on, be sure to get the little "hook" at the top of the plate under the face of the frame. If you don't, you'll really screw things up.

When you get the plate aligned, tap it gently into place with a non-marring mallet (I usually use a piece of dowel rod that I've drilled out and poured lead into the end).

Then reinstall the screws. Don't tighten them down one at a time. Get them started, and snug them up in sucession just as if you are putting the wheel back on a car. That's extra assurance that you're not going to warp the sideplate.

2. An action job can GREATLY improve the trigger pull.

There are several stages of action jobs.

A) Springs only. In this, the mainspring and the rebound slide spring are replaced. Both have an effect on the felt trigger pull. Once you get to know the interior of your Smith a little better, you can easily do this yourself.

B) Action smoothing. This is more intensive, and more expensive, and should be done by a qualified smith. In this the gun is completely disassembled, and all of the internal parts polished and smoothed.

Done in conjunction with A, the improvement in trigger pull weight and feel can be absolutely unbelievable.

I've reached the point where I'm now doing both A and B. I did a friend's Smith 36 the other month. It started out with a trigger that was crunchy, nasty, and heavy.

I replaced the springs, and it made a big improvement, but it was still crunchy. When I did the smoothing job, it turned a nasty action into a very very good action.

As someone mentioned, changes in the springs can cause ignition problems. If you have this done, you should always fire the gun extensively with your chosen protection ammo BEFORE you rely on it.

I've never had a gun fail to fire reliably (I've now done probably 30 for myself and my friends) after just replacing the springs with a Wolfe springset.

Reliability normally becomes a problem when you start snipping coils off springs, start messing with the strain screw location, etc.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Nosegunner,

An action job CAN easily reduce the trigger pull weight. The most dramatic I ever saw was a gun I did for a friend about 8 months ago. The double action was 17 pounds from the factory!!!

The action job, without a spring replacement, dropped that to 15 pounds.

Removing all those friction points allows the action to work more smoothly, meaning you don't have to work as hard to overcome the physical resistance they pose.

After the action job, I dropped in a set of Wolfe springs. Trigger pull now? Just a hair under 10 pounds!

WOO HOO was I happy with that one! :)

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
May I make a sugestion?Get Kuhnhausens on S&W revolvers.THis book has all the information you need to do much of your own work without messing anything up.There are a number of things you can do to lighten up the trigger and some of them are wrong.This book will give the right way to do things.
The other source of information that I recommend if American Gunsmithing Instiute vidio tapes.They have one on S&W.I own 2,FN FAL and sig handguns so I feel I can recommend them.They are allso fully gurrented and the cost is 29.95.Email me direct if you want the phone number.
Hope this helps
Bob

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Mike,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
Nosegunner,

An action job CAN easily reduce the trigger pull weight. The most dramatic I ever saw was a gun I did for a friend about 8 months ago. The double action was 17 pounds from the factory!!!

[/quote]


I'll sort of agree with what you are saying, but if the cleaning up of the action resulted in 2lbs of reduced trigger pull, that was ONE messed up action from the start. The trigger pull weight is generally dictated by the weight of the springs, both the mainspring and the rebound spring. In most cases, when one "cleans up" the action, it will "feel" better, even though the original spring weights are the same. Many folks interpret this "felt" reduction to better springs, but most of the time the smoothness that comes with a good action job is more than sufficient to meet their needs. I guess another way to say this is that the roughness of the action is interpretted as "heavy" when in fact it is just rough. I stand by my comment earlier that smooth beats light in most cases. Yes, you can do better with a set of lighter springs, but in taking all things into account, you are starting to get into an area that could result in poor ignition. Backing off the strain relief screw a slight amount will give you much the same results, and even though I don't recommend it (over a good action job), it would be easier and less costly than replacing springs that are in good shape. The disclaimer on this is: If you loosen up the strain relief screw too much, you can effect the action, timing and overall functioning of the piece. FWIW ......SmithNut
 
I second Bob's recommendation re gettin Kuhnhausen's book on S&W revolvers. It will help you understand the critter even if you don't do your own work on it.

I have had good luck leaving the hammer spring alone and reducing the rebound (trigger return) spring. That way I get good double action pull and no worry bout firing hard primers.

I understand that post sell out hammer springs are quite a bit heavy and could use replacement with older style.

Sam....my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R.
 
I absolutely do NOT agree with backing out the strain screw, nor do I advocate shortening the strain screw.

In a field of proper methods of doing the job, this is, in my opinion, NOT one of them.

Felt trigger pull and actual trigger pull are related, yes. But, again, if you smooth up the action, reducing friction and binding, you reduce the amout of effort needed to move the objects.

The exact same thing is true of lubrication. Without lubrication, moving something generally takes more force. With proper lubrication, less force is needed because friction is reduced.

In effect, an action job can be though of as "physical lubrication." What you're doing is, really, the same thing, in that you're reducing the amount of interference between the metal parts.

As for reliability...

GENERALLY, and I mean generally, a gun that is reliable with stock springs is going to be reliable with a Wolfe reduced power main spring.

I've dropped nearly 40 sets of them into various types of S&W revolvers over the past several years, and none have had reliability problems with commercial ammo after that.

Reliability problems normally come into play when someone does one of two things:

1. starts snipping coils off the main spring in a J-frame revolver, or

2. starts grinding the leaf mainspring in a K, L, or N frame.

The only reliability problems I've seen with the Wolfe reduced power main springs is due to improper lubrication, either too much or too little.

Too much of a grease type lubrican will reduce hammer fall speeds.

Too little lubricant, especially on a pistol that has not had an action job, can also reduce hammer speed.

In both cases, friction is to blame.
 
A good action job will not make a revolver unreliable. And yes, it may involve work on springs. There are right ways and wrong ways, which is why people who do that kind of work expect to get reasonable pay for it.

Backing out the mainspring screw is not recommended because it can cause the top end of the spring to interfere with the hammer.

For cleaning a revolver without disassembly, I use an old favorite, G96 Gun Treatment. Remove the grips and spray the stuff inside until the dirt washes out. Unlike Gun Scrubber, G96 is a lubricant and rust preventer. After the cleaner drains, cock the hammer and put a few drops (3-4) of a good oil ahead of the hammer and 1-2 ahead of the trigger.

Jim
 
Relax guys,
You can take a position on the strain screw all you want. I completely agree, hence the disclaimer in both of my posts. By the same token, this advice was meant to be a bit "practical" for a self professed "newbie". Anyone that knows me from other boards knows that the first thing I suggest looking for with any misfiring S&W revolver is the strain screw having been turned out. I don't ever recommend said treatment as alternative to doing a proper action job.
BUT, I also don't recommend that a "newbie" take the sideplate off, or start dissassembling a revolver to install new springs. Nothing about my recommendation is irreversable (turn the screw back in the 1/2 to 1 turn suggested). Reversing home gunsmithing by someone that has created a problem for whatever reason can be costly. Nothing posted here was meant to suggest a "better way", just "another" way for a "newbie" to slightly lighten that pull to get by the arthritis issue, again with the admonition to try it before you rely on it.
When I read the line about the very helpful gunshop owner "lightening" up the action for $20, my first inclination was that is exactly what the guy did in any event. It may not be what was done, then again, for $20, do you think a competent gunsmith did a proper action job for that????
No one on this thread (including me) has asked posigian if he is comfortable in performing this type of work. No one has asked if he is on a tight budget. No one has asked if he WANTS to get involved with home gunsmithing.
Also, the Kuhnhausen book is a great reference book, no issue there. I have several. While they are great technical journels, I think they are great for gunsmiths and folks that are into tinkering to this level, they are not beginners manuals for accomplishing action work.
Last point, too many guys start their "action" discussions with "drop in some reduced power Wolfe springs". Easy answer, and not always the right one. I am not a proponent of lighter springs for any defense gun, game guns OK, but for carry and defense guns I say no. That is MY preference only. You can do what you want. I do use Wolfe springs, but stay with the standard power versions. They are great products.
Thanks for reading this far, and peace.
......SmithNut
 
Whoa, did I open Pandora’s Box or what?

First, I am slightly mechanically inclined and might consider tackling certain projects provided I had enough documentation available to help me along. But I would most likely prefer a competent smith do any real work. I would hate to put my family in jeopardy should I make a mistake.

I am glad I asked about this before I even tried anything. It had been made clear to me that the side plate can warp real easy if your not careful. Right now my big concern is with cleaning the gun. Like I said before, I shot some real dirty ammo this past weekend and I can see a lot of powder/dirt when I look into the hhmmmmm…..what do you call it…….hhhmmmmm. You know, when the cylinder is open, you can see into the shrouded are around the hammer and such. So that is where I see it being dirty. So my concern was regarding the use of a spray cleaning solvent into that area. I don’t want to harm the gun by moving too much dirt around in there. So that is why I asked about taking the side plate off.

With regards to the trigger\action. I asked thinking how nice it would be if the trigger wasn’t so hard to pull all of the time. The arthritis I deal with at this point in my life is very mild. But at the end of the day at the range, I find that my performance diminishes. Its not that big of a deal, but a lighter trigger would be nice.

OK…too long of a story…just wanted to interject a bit on what some have said.

Thanks again to everyone,


------------------
Posigian
posigian@provide.net
I AM THE NRA
 
As far as carbon deposits are concerned, I use a little "Brasso". You can get this at hardware stores and it works great. I think those yellow fouling cloths are messy. Put a little Brasso on a patch and you'll have the same thing. The fouling will come right off. Dip a pipe cleaner in some Brasso for the tight areas. Clean it off well. BTW, the main reason I tried MPro7 cleaner was because they specifically claim it'll clean carbon deposits when used with a stainless steel brush. My experience is, it reduces it but it doesn't remove it completely. I even tried squirting some MPro-7 on the cylinder face before I start shooting on the range, or squirting some on immediately afterward while the gun is still warm. Even though I've replaced Hoppes Number 9 with MPro7 as my bore cleaner I still use Brasso as described. Hope this helps.
 
SmithNut,

ALL of my defensive handguns have lightened trigger and rebound slide springs. Some of them have had full-bore action jobs, some haven't.

But, after I installed the lightened springs, the FIRST thing I did was to fire at least 250 of my preferred defensive loads through the gun, and 500 or more of all types of ammo.

To date, not a single one of the Smith revolvers that I have worked on, including my personal defensive guns, has had a single power-related failure to fire a cartridge.

What's being missed here is that there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between randomly lightening a spring by altering it, and using a spring that is specifically designed for the gun in which it is being installed.

Posigian,

Removing the sideplate from a Smith is NOT difficult. As with any finely crafted object, you need to exercise care when working on your gun. In that sense, it is no different than changing the sparkplugs in your car, or even the oil. (Ever strip out an oil pan screw? I did. Whoa boy what a Charlie Foxtrot.)

To date, I've done spring replacements and actions jobs on nearly 30 S&Ws, if my count is correct. I'm entirely self taught in how to do it, too.

The watchwords are 'go slowly', 'inspect the relationship of the parts BEFORE removing them', and 'refer to your manual often'.
 
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