A few questions on "New" ammo

L

Lokpyrite

New member
Hello All, While I'm not new to shooting having scored expert more then 20 years ago and gone milk jug hunting years before that. I've recentley got back into firearms picking up an XD 9mm.
On to the questions. What do the 357sig and 45gap do to make them different and or better then their competition? Is the Sig the same as a 357 magnum but dressed up in fancy semi auto clothes? What's the reason for the 45 gap? thanks
 
I believe the 357 sig was developed to duplicate the performance of the 357 magnum but in an semi auto.
The 45 gap was developed for Glock by CCI. They wanted the ballistics of a 45 acp just in a smaller package. I have never reloaded any 45 gap, but I believe they use a small pistol primer.
 
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The "rimmed" revolver cartridges are harder to make work in a semi-auto pistol which is why the .357 Sig was developed. It uses a "rimless" case. As sserdlihc mentioned, the .45 GAP was developed to try to mimic the performance of the .45 ACP cartridge in a shorter cartridge for use in a smaller pistol. It's a niche cartridge.
 
IMO the Sig cart was because they wanted a hotter 9MM cartridge, but the cartridge hotter than a 9X19 is something like 38 super. But it is longer. So to keep sizes down they necked down the 40 cal. case to get a short but more powerful cartridge. Sorta like the magnum revolver but not as flexible with bullets. And the bottle neck cases feed well in an auto, like the 30 Mauser or the similiar Russian cartridge. The GAP was made to make a 45 Glock that is not so bulky in the grip area, I gather. And how do you sell more guns? Make a new caliber and market it like crazy! Same gun, new ammo! Buy it now!
 
.357sig comes close to the .357 magnum.
.45gap is a short .45 designed to reduce the grip space
needed by the .45acp

Both are good rounds but not super popular for various reasons.
 
.357SIG was designed to replicate ONE particular popular loading of the .357Magnum in a cartridge that was autopistol friendly. It does a pretty good job of duplicating the performance of the 125gr JHP loading of the .357Magnum-- nominally 1450fps from a 4" revolver barrel. I suppose one could also take the view that the .357SIG is a legitimized 9mm +P+. It has gained acceptance in the LE community but is not threatening any of the more popular cartridges such as the .40S&W, the 9mm and the .45ACP in terms of sales.

The .45GAP was an attempt to do with the .45ACP what the .40S&W did with the 10mm. That is, to fit the performance of the larger cartridge into a 9mm sized pistol frame. You get an extra bonus with the .45GAP in that it duplicates the performance of standard pressure .45ACP while the .40S&W is a markedly reduced performance version of the 10mm. The GAP even less popular than the .357SIG, in my opinion largely because the .45ACP is more of a religious decision for many than it is a caliber choice. The GAP is viewed as a possible threat to the .45ACP's popularity and is therefore considered to be heresy by many and gets very little positive press as a result.
 
Eh. Can't agree with you, John, about the reasons the .45 GAP isn't so popular.

You want to come up with a new cartridge and have it become a top seller, it's not enough to be as good as what came before. Rather, you've got to be better, and not just in one small theoretical area ("But your automatic's grip can be an eighth of an inch shorter!") but in something major.

Otherwise, you have on the one hand Glock's latest gee-whiz invention, a couple models of pistols that shoot it, and a box or two of ammo on the shelves, vs. a caliber that most of the people who would want a .45 caliber automatic pistol already have, chambered in dozens of models, and with its own private entire ammo SECTION. There are going to be the two or three guys for which that minor theoretical advantage is important, and then there will be everyone else in the entire world. Including many of the Glock fans, since one of the manufacturers making pistols chambered in .45 ACP is Glock itself...

Of course Glock is neither the first nor the last to come up with a new technologically advanced cartridge destined for immediate obscurity. Take the flurry of short magnum rifle cartridges that have come out. In that case, not only did you just create smaller cartridges duplicating performance of other calibers that had been popular for a long time, but you also have multiple manufacturers introducing competing versions, all at the same time. There was little enough chance that any of these would ever rival the popularity of the old cartridges they were set up to "replace." Having multiple varieties makes that task even tougher. It absolutely ensures that most of them will be forgotten, and the competition between different new cartridges increases the chance they all will be. Customers will wait to buy until sure which of the new cartridges will survive, and in the end none of them do, because everybody was waiting.

It's a pity, really, because they aren't BAD cartridges, but going up against a cartridge which has had a huge "installed base" for ten, twenty, or a hundred years is just a really, really tough business model.
 
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You want to come up with a new cartridge and have it become a top seller, it's not enough to be as good as what came before. Rather, you've got to be better, and not just in one small theoretical area ("But your automatic's grip can be an eighth of an inch shorter!") but in something major.
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The problem with that assertion is that the currently most popular cartridge in Law Enforcement and one of the most popular cartridges in the commercial market is the .40S&W. It was designed to be to the 10mm what the GAP was designed to be to the .45ACP BUT not as well. It wasn't even able to match the performance of standard pressure 10mm while the GAP is able to match the performance of standard pressure .45ACP.

Here's a comparison.

.40S&W
  • Much less powerful than the standard pressure parent cartridge.
  • Fits into a 9mm sized gun.

.45GAP
  • As powerful or slightly more powerful than the standard pressure parent cartridge.
  • Fits into a pistol with a 9mm sized frame.
It's a pity, really, because they aren't BAD cartridges, but going up against a cartridge which has had a huge "installed base" for ten, twenty, or a hundred years is just a really, really tough business model.
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Isn't that what I said? The reason it's not taking off has nothing to do with it's lack of merit (if it did the .40S&W would never have made it), it has to do with the fact that it's perceived as competition for the .45ACP and that instantly created a huge base of enemies.
 
Improvements in guns and ammunition are sometimes groundbreaking, like the introduction of metallic cartridges, but usually they are more incremental, little improvements at a time. Otherwise we'd all be using guns designed a 100 years ago.
 
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