9x23 Win

K

kcub

New member
I stumbled onto a footnote about this possibly also being able to shoot 38 Super. Is that so? Same mags?

Anywho, I'd like to know more about this round and the guns that fire it.
 
It's a modernized versioin of .38 Super. The rim is fully rebated instead of semi-rimmed, so a dedicated 9x23 gun may not be able to fit .38 Super in the breechface. The case is slightly tapered and can take much higher pressure than .38 Super.

Realistically, it is the auto version of .357 magnum. And, unlike .357 Sig, has the capacity of 9mm.

Good article:
http://38super.net/Pages/9X23.html
 
There is apparently some interchangeability, but the cartridge specs are enough different - especially the ~10,000psi difference in max pressure - that I would not shoot 9x23 in a Super.
9x23 uses a tapered case - think 9mm Luger extended 4mm in length - while .38 Super is not tapered, so the chambers are cut quite differently, but there's apparently enough dimensional overlap that some guns will chamber both rounds.
It would be similar to shooting .357 Mag out of a revolver chambered for .38 S&W, with chambers sloppy enough to accept the more powerful round.
 
I had one 38 Super (top end) that functioned with complete reliability using 38 Super, 38 Rimless, 38 Supercomp, 38 TJ, 9x23 (am I missin' any? 'cause this thing ate 'em all!).
 
I'm sure there are more than a few guns that will chamber 9x23 well. It is the best feeding shape of this class of cartridges. It just may not always extract perfectly from the smaller rim. And the potential for destroying something if the 9x23 is loaded near max should give people pause.

Of course, many of the .38 Super guns were over maximum pressure with handloads. 9x23 formalized those pressures.


People make such a fuss about caliber, but it seems like combat guns have been running between .30 and .45 for 150 years, and .356 caliber keeps being the most popular military and police caliber. 9x23 makes for a great 9mm Luger Magnum.
 
Was not the OP's question about 9x23 guns being able to shoot .38 Super, not the other way around?

So the is not much danger in shooting the lesser round in the gun that is built for the stronger round, assuming the slide is in full battery when the firing pin strikes.

Bart Noir
 
Was not the OP's question about 9x23 guns being able to shoot .38 Super, not the other way around?
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Was it not answered here?:
The rim is fully rebated instead of semi-rimmed, so a dedicated 9x23 gun may not be able to fit .38 Super in the breechface.
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1) What guns shoot 9x23?
2) Can a 38 Super be safely made to handle both rounds, with extra barrel, reamed out barrel, extra spring and/or extractor, whatever however works and is safe.
 
Back when it was the 9x23 CP Elite, a semi-wildcat proprietary round, there were two chamber reamers offered. One was to chamber a new barrel to the optimum dimensions for 9x23. The other was to open up a .38 Super chamber to be sure of accepting the tapered 9x23 case.
And there are numerous .38 Supers that will accept the 9x23 as is. But you need a good stout .38 Super, the chamber pressures are a lot higher.

I don't know about shooting .38 Super in a 9x23 gun. If it chambers freely without "bullet pinch" it will be safe to use; pressures are lower in standard loads.
Most 9x23 owners wanting to buy big and shoot small end up with a spare 9mm P barrel.

Magazines are the same.

Oh, by the way, you might want to look up the difference between semirimmed, rimless, and rebated. I don't know of a rebated rim pistol cartridge since the .41AE and .50AE.
 
1) What guns shoot 9x23?
2) Can a 38 Super be safely made to handle both rounds, with extra barrel, reamed out barrel, extra spring and/or extractor, whatever however works and is safe.
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1. I know Colt offered a 1911 in 9x23 Win at one time. The EAA Witness was/is available in 9x23. I think STI and a couple of the other smaller 1911 houses offer them as well.

2. Yes, a .38 Super can be made to shoot 9x23 but rather than cut the Super barrel you can just get another barrel already chambered for 9x23. You'd need the proper strength recoil spring and a fitted bushing (if it's a 1911), and the extractor would probably need some tweaking to work with both cartridges. A local gunsmith recently completed a build for me using a Colt 1991A1 .38 Super as the base, I had him fit a 9x23 and a 9mm barrel to it. It's just a barrel/spring/bushing swap to change calibers, and the Super and 9x23 use the same mags.


BTW, I have shot 9x23 out of a Super, but never the other way around.
 
Oh, by the way, you might want to look up the difference between semirimmed, rimless, and rebated. I don't know of a rebated rim pistol cartridge since the .41AE and .50AE.
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Spot on, Jim. I had been reading about .41 AE and said it wrong. I meant fully rimless.

Aside from some sort of 1911s, the most obvious other platform would be the large frame Witness pistols from Tanfoglio. The current large frame is designed to take 9mm, .38 Super, .45, .40 and 10mm magazines. Given that they sell a 10mm gun, you would think 9x23 wouldn't be an issue. The peak pressure is higher, but the recoil is lower and the chamber walls are thicker.

Here's a thread that makes it sound like using a stock .38 Witness works very well with 9x23. Which doesn't surprise me - my Witness .45 had a fairly tight chamber and was very accurate. I suppose the .007" wider base on the 9x23 could be an issue, but doesn't seem to be in the Witness guns.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=106113

I can't think of any other modern .38 Super platforms off the bat. A possible for modifying would be an HK USP 9 full size. The plastic mags leave enough room in the mag well to use modified STI metal mags - like folks do to turn USP .40s into 10mms. It's a really tough platform with a great recoil/buffer system, so it might work well. I'd modify an aftermarket barrel for such a project. An extended and ported barrel would also take some of the recoil off the gun and keep the chamber closed longer.
 
1. I know Colt offered a 1911 in 9x23 Win at one time.
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Colt also offered a 9x23 conversion kit, with consisted of, IIRC, only a barrel and magazine.
I don't know that I'd want to depend on drop-in barrel fit, with the probability of a single barrel lug having to withstand 45,000psi of chamber pressure. I've read some admonitions about ensuring that all three barrel lugs (1911) are in longitudinal contact with their corresponding slots in the slide.
 
I've been interested in the 9x23 Winchester for a while. I believe there is an old thread on these forums that advocated using an EAA .38 super and a 9x19 upper with the barrel bored to accommodate the longer round. You would need to use .38 super magazines. That's the reason for starting with the .38 super lower. I think the complete upper was suggested just for convenience. All you would really need is the reamed barrel and a heavier spring. I think this would be a really cool caliber to have if one were to hand load ammo. I would certainly like to try it in the future.
 
Why not just use a stock .38 Super Witness? According to the thread I posted, it works very well with no reaming. More accurate than with .38s loaded.

I'd be inclined to use a shock buff and/or Henning square firing pin stop so you don't need to beat up the slide stop with heavy recoil springs.
 
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