9x17, 9x18, 9x19
- Thread starter kramden
- Start date
deerslayer303
New member
One has a 17mm long case, one has an 18mm long case, and the other has a 19mm long case. 
Seriously 9X17 is .380 Auto or .380 ACP, 9X18 Makarov is a little longer than .380 with a little bit bigger diameter bullet, and 9X19 is 9mm Luger or 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Nato.
Seriously 9X17 is .380 Auto or .380 ACP, 9X18 Makarov is a little longer than .380 with a little bit bigger diameter bullet, and 9X19 is 9mm Luger or 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Nato.
carguychris
New member
9x17 is the metric designation for the cartridge generally known in the USA as .380 ACP (for Automatic Colt Pistol) or .380 Auto. Developed by the famous firearms designer John Moses Browning, it's commonly known as 9mm Browning Short in Europe, with "Short" often being translated into the local language, e.g. Court in French, Kurz (pronounced "Curts") in German, or Corto in Spanish and Italian.
The reason it's "Short" is to differentiate it from a previous and longer Browning cartridge, 9x23mmSR aka 9mm Browning or .38 ACP. This cartridge was used in the Colt Model 1900 and has largely fallen into disuse, although it's the parent cartridge to .38 Super.
9x18 refers to one of two dissimilar cartridges. The most common is 9mm Makarov, a cartridge developed by the Soviets shortly after WWII for use in their new PM (for "Pistolet Makarov") service pistol. This cartridge was also used in several other Warsaw Pact pistols common on the surplus market. It's popular enough to several companies currently market the ammo.
The other 9x18 cartridge is the 9mm Ultra and the closely related 9mm Police. It was developed by the Luftwaffe prior to WWII but was never adopted because 9x19mm Parabellum and 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) were deemed adequate for all Nazi pistol needs. (In the 1930s, the Luftwaffe conducted several unnecessary programs to develop redundant bespoke equipment, largely due to the exaggerated political influence of Hermann Göring, but I digress.
). The cartridge was resurrected in the late 1960s in an effort to field a German national police cartridge more powerful than 9x17/.380 but easier to shoot than 9x19, but the authorities ultimately (and rightly IMHO) decided that simply adopting 9x19 was a better idea since off-the-shelf pistols and ammo were readily available, and most people can shoot 9x19 reasonably well with appropriate training. Most of the surplus 9x18 Police pistols and ammo were offloaded on the U.S. commercial market. (Today it's much easier to find the pistols than the ammo, since the pistols were never common enough to make it worthwhile for the ammo companies to produce it.)
The reason it's "Short" is to differentiate it from a previous and longer Browning cartridge, 9x23mmSR aka 9mm Browning or .38 ACP. This cartridge was used in the Colt Model 1900 and has largely fallen into disuse, although it's the parent cartridge to .38 Super.
9x18 refers to one of two dissimilar cartridges. The most common is 9mm Makarov, a cartridge developed by the Soviets shortly after WWII for use in their new PM (for "Pistolet Makarov") service pistol. This cartridge was also used in several other Warsaw Pact pistols common on the surplus market. It's popular enough to several companies currently market the ammo.
The other 9x18 cartridge is the 9mm Ultra and the closely related 9mm Police. It was developed by the Luftwaffe prior to WWII but was never adopted because 9x19mm Parabellum and 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) were deemed adequate for all Nazi pistol needs. (In the 1930s, the Luftwaffe conducted several unnecessary programs to develop redundant bespoke equipment, largely due to the exaggerated political influence of Hermann Göring, but I digress.
). The cartridge was resurrected in the late 1960s in an effort to field a German national police cartridge more powerful than 9x17/.380 but easier to shoot than 9x19, but the authorities ultimately (and rightly IMHO) decided that simply adopting 9x19 was a better idea since off-the-shelf pistols and ammo were readily available, and most people can shoot 9x19 reasonably well with appropriate training. Most of the surplus 9x18 Police pistols and ammo were offloaded on the U.S. commercial market. (Today it's much easier to find the pistols than the ammo, since the pistols were never common enough to make it worthwhile for the ammo companies to produce it.)
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g.willikers
New member
You left out 9x21, 9x23, as well as the Dillon 9x25.
And don't forget the .38 Super.
Never mind all the .38 revolver rounds.
Eghads.
Confusing, but amusing.
And don't forget the .38 Super.
Never mind all the .38 revolver rounds.
Eghads.
Confusing, but amusing.
I had a friend who was ready to buy himself a "9 mm" pistol for a great price, and asked me to look at it. He was very disappointed to learn that it was 9 x 18 and he wouldn't be able to buy ammo at every discount store around, and so he passed. Good for you to ask the questions.
deerslayer303
New member
Yes 9X18 is almost mail order only. One is better off with .380 or 9mm Luger if you want readily available ammo. I do love my CZ82 though, as well as a few others chambered for the round. It just takes planning ahead or a little stock piling to own a gun chambered in 9X18 if you plan to shoot them often.
carguychris
New member
Depends which 9x18 you're talking about.deerslayer303 said:
Academy Sports stocks 9x18 Makarov.
That said, one potential and significant problem with this cartridge is that most commercial ammo is made in Russia or Eastern Europe and uses steel cases and bimetal bullets, and many indoor ranges prohibit this ammo due to the tendency of the bimetal bullets to ricochet, potentially injuring range visitors and igniting fires. Brass-case ammo with standard copper-jacketed lead-core bullets is harder to find.9x18 Ultra aka 9mm Police is an obscure boutique round that is seldom stocked by retailers; it is truly almost mail-order only.
One interesting story about the 9x18 Makarov is that the Soviets supposedly deliberately designed it with a bullet size that was NOT interchangeable with any "western" round.
According to the legends, this was not done because of any military advantage, but to make the pistols less attractive to black market buyers.
With the fall of the Soviet Union, 9mm Makarovs and their ammo were "dumped" on the US market, and became somewhat popular due to their low price. Now that the bulk of that "soviet surplus" has been sold off (including the ammo) they aren't that popular any more, and while you can get ammo still, it isn't commonly stocked in regular retail stores.
In other words, if you find low price bulk Makarov ammo at your local WalMrt, go buy some lottery tickets, too!
According to the legends, this was not done because of any military advantage, but to make the pistols less attractive to black market buyers.
With the fall of the Soviet Union, 9mm Makarovs and their ammo were "dumped" on the US market, and became somewhat popular due to their low price. Now that the bulk of that "soviet surplus" has been sold off (including the ammo) they aren't that popular any more, and while you can get ammo still, it isn't commonly stocked in regular retail stores.
In other words, if you find low price bulk Makarov ammo at your local WalMrt, go buy some lottery tickets, too!
Carguychris has given a good summary, but the 9mm Browning Short was called that to distinguish it from the 9mm Browning Long, which was fairly well known in Europe. They had very little knowledge of the .38 ACP/.38 Super Auto, which has never been used in a European pistol except for exports to the U.S.
The 9mm Browning Long came about because FN wanted a pistol to compete with DWM's Luger, something the only FN pistol (the Model 1900) could not do. So in 1903, Browning came up with a new pistol, a fairly large blowback design. A blowback pistol could not handle the .38 ACP, so Browning cut down that case to .800", producing a lower pressure cartridge that his blowback could handle. That was the round that was called the 9mm Browning. (It was not called "long" until the shorter 9mm Browning/.380 ACP came out, when the names "long" and "short" were given to the cartridges.)
The same year, Browning took his new FN pistol to Colt; they were not interested in it, but wanted a pocket pistol. So Browning scaled down the 1903 FN to use 7.65mm Browning, which became the .32 ACP and the famous Colt M1903 was born.
Jim
The 9mm Browning Long came about because FN wanted a pistol to compete with DWM's Luger, something the only FN pistol (the Model 1900) could not do. So in 1903, Browning came up with a new pistol, a fairly large blowback design. A blowback pistol could not handle the .38 ACP, so Browning cut down that case to .800", producing a lower pressure cartridge that his blowback could handle. That was the round that was called the 9mm Browning. (It was not called "long" until the shorter 9mm Browning/.380 ACP came out, when the names "long" and "short" were given to the cartridges.)
The same year, Browning took his new FN pistol to Colt; they were not interested in it, but wanted a pocket pistol. So Browning scaled down the 1903 FN to use 7.65mm Browning, which became the .32 ACP and the famous Colt M1903 was born.
Jim
Emerson Biggies
New member
Last October, at the Knob Creek MG shoot, I stocked up on Makarov ammo.
$9/box of 50.
Just about all the ammo for sale there, below 50BMG stuff, was steel cased and Russian made.
Of all the MGs they were firing, just about all of them were blasting off the cheap Russian stuff. Why not when it's so cheap and reliable?
$9/box of 50.
Just about all the ammo for sale there, below 50BMG stuff, was steel cased and Russian made.
Of all the MGs they were firing, just about all of them were blasting off the cheap Russian stuff. Why not when it's so cheap and reliable?
You forgot to mention these:
9x18 Ultra (WW2 and re-introduced in later years)
9x18 Makarov Super
9x19 Glisenti - dimensionally same as 9mm Luger loaded much lighter truncated bullets to differentiate from hotter 9mmluger/SMG loads.
9x21 Several similar rounds. Introduced in Italy where "military calibers" not allowed to private owners, another used in competitive shooting in USA to make major caliber.
9mm Browning Long (9x20~) Swedish, Spanish, and others
9mm Mauser (9x25) not experimental but saw wide use in Broomhandles and SMG's.
9x23mm - Bergman bayard, Campo Giro(?), Steyr
9mm Mars - experimental semi-production for the British Mars Series of Pistols. bottle necked load.
9x18 Ultra (WW2 and re-introduced in later years)
9x18 Makarov Super
9x19 Glisenti - dimensionally same as 9mm Luger loaded much lighter truncated bullets to differentiate from hotter 9mmluger/SMG loads.
9x21 Several similar rounds. Introduced in Italy where "military calibers" not allowed to private owners, another used in competitive shooting in USA to make major caliber.
9mm Browning Long (9x20~) Swedish, Spanish, and others
9mm Mauser (9x25) not experimental but saw wide use in Broomhandles and SMG's.
9x23mm - Bergman bayard, Campo Giro(?), Steyr
9mm Mars - experimental semi-production for the British Mars Series of Pistols. bottle necked load.
44AMP, You are a bit off base on the declining popularity of the Macarov pistol. The supplies of the pistol had mostly been sold out when recently thousands of " new or like new " pistols were offered, they are selling like hotcakes at slightly over $300. I purchased two to accompany my other Makarkov and com bloc pistols in 9x18 caliber. There are a suprising number of Makarov pistols in the EDC holsters of CCW authorized Americans.
I've got these odd pistols and at least a box of ammo each in my collection.
When I started collecting in the 1970's I tried to standardize my ammo vs guns. Then I wanted one of every gun made.
9 mm Jap (T-26 pistol)
9mm Glisentia (Italy Glisentia M 1910)
9X18 Ultra/police (Benelli)
9mm 9mm steyr (A few Austrian/Hungarians)
9mm Largo (A few spanish pistols)
And so life goes on.
When I started collecting in the 1970's I tried to standardize my ammo vs guns. Then I wanted one of every gun made.
9 mm Jap (T-26 pistol)
9mm Glisentia (Italy Glisentia M 1910)
9X18 Ultra/police (Benelli)
9mm 9mm steyr (A few Austrian/Hungarians)
9mm Largo (A few spanish pistols)
And so life goes on.
Jim Watson
New member
Beginners in the field should be reminded that 9x18 Makarov is really a 9.2mm caliber, firing a .364" diameter bullet.
It won't even chamber in any of the true 9mms that I have seen.
It will work the other way 'round, sort of.
There was - may still even be an open cold case - where a man was apparently shot with a .380 round fired from a Makarov.
Which led to the legend that the Russians did not want NATO to be able to use captured Soviet ammo but wanted to be able to shoot our .380s in a pinch. Wonder where they thought they would get them?
.44 AMP's story is more plausible.
It won't even chamber in any of the true 9mms that I have seen.
It will work the other way 'round, sort of.
There was - may still even be an open cold case - where a man was apparently shot with a .380 round fired from a Makarov.
Which led to the legend that the Russians did not want NATO to be able to use captured Soviet ammo but wanted to be able to shoot our .380s in a pinch. Wonder where they thought they would get them?
.44 AMP's story is more plausible.
Cheapshooter
New member
X2
The best twenty five bucks a newbee can spend!
https://www.amazon.com/Cartridges-W...&btkr=1&redirect=true&ref_=dp-kindle-redirect