9mm vs 38 spl

C

Clay

New member
Hey guys,
I've got a big curiosity about the "usability" of the 9 vs the 38. We're trying to get my mother (61yo) to shoot. She lives in GA and actually has a conceal permit (as they're so easy to get, so she got one when my Dad got one), but won't even shoot a gun. My dad has a .40 and she won't even touch it. So, we're down here visiting and we have my son's 22 (Buckmark). She seems willing to shoot it and start learning. Now, they have my grandfather's old S&W 38 snub nose. I could have sworn it was smaller and had less "kick" than the 9mm does. But, now that I look at the thing, those bullets are a lot bigger than the 9 is! So is this a good gun to try and get her to start shooting with? I'm worried about her shooting it and being scared away. I KNOW she could handle a 9 just fine, but she's a very "girly girl" and would probably run scared the moment it gave even moderate kick.

Thoughts and opinions encouraged. This isn't a 9 vs 38 in terms of ballistics, but instead just recoil and usability. Thanks!
 
I could have sworn it was smaller and had less "kick" than the 9mm does. But, now that I look at the thing, those bullets are a lot bigger than the 9 is!
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Don't make assumptions based on the case capacity. The .38Spl was based on a 19th-century blackpowder round, the .38 Long Colt, and blackpowder rounds use much larger cases because it's less dense than smokeless powder. Furthermore, early .38Spl revolvers aren't very strong by modern standards due to relatively primitive manufacturing technology. Hence, .38Spl rounds are loaded to much lower pressure (18,000 psi standard, 19,500 psi +P) than 9mm Luger (35,000 psi standard, 38,500 psi +P), which was designed to take advantage of stronger, more technologically advanced gun designs that took hold in the early 20th century.

9mm delivers much more velocity and generally more kinetic energy than .38Spl using equal-weight bullets. The only catch is that the big .38Spl case can accomodate heavier bullets in the 158gr-180gr range, whereas the practical upper limit for 9mm is 147gr, and most popular 9mm loads use 115gr-124gr bullets. A heavier bullet will penetrate better because it has more momentum, and many experts believe that this factor makes heavier bullets more effective in the real world than a slightly lighter bullet with more kinetic energy. However, a heavier bullet will usually generate more recoil, although this is highly dependent on the load. Many shooters subscribe to the old adage that a lighter bullet generates a "snap" whereas a heavier bullet generates more of a "push".
Now, they have my grandfather's old S&W 38 snub nose... So is this a good gun to try and get her to start shooting with?
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Probably not. The two questions- is this the right cartridge, is this the right gun- are really somewhat unrelated.

First, the .38 is a revolver. Many newbie shooters like revolvers because there's no slide to rack and the gun is generally simpler to operate. OTOH the long and heavy DA trigger pull makes it difficult for many new shooters to hold the gun on target. This problem is exacerbated if the gun is lightweight, which most snubbies are. This may cause her to get frustrated quickly. Despite having to rack the slide, it's easier for most newbies to achieve a high degree of accuracy with a semi-auto's light and short trigger pull.

Second, the gun is a snubby. This is generally bad for a newbie because the short sight radius makes it more difficult to see small imperfections in sight alignment. It's easier to shoot a longer-barreled gun accurately, especially if you're an older person and your eyesight isn't as crisp as it used to be.

Third, although you don't say what model the .38 is, I assume it's a small J frame, since they have always substantially outsold the larger and heavier K, L, and N frames with short barrels. Small and light guns have more recoil than larger and heavier ones. Most .38Spl J frames have pretty stout recoil compared to all but the smallest and lightest 9mm semi-autos.

If she wants to use a revolver, IMHO you should start her out with a larger, heavier, and longer barreled .38, or a smaller-caliber compact model.
 
the two rounds are similar in power but the kick can be very subjective it depends on factors such as the fit of the gun, the grips, weight of the gun a semiauto soaks up a bit of the recoil by using some of the gas to operate the action

I would suggest trying the revolver with 38 special wadcutters. The revolver is simpler for most people to use and the wadcutters are the least powerful round commercially made for that gun
 
Thanks for the input! That was exactly what I was thinking, that the powder would make the difference. It is indeed a J frame, 1967 model 36. It's in perfect condition, probably fired 10 times in its life. I just cleaned it up, looks like new! I think we're going to try it out and will see what it's like before I turn it over to Mom. I've got, basically, a Glock 26, and I'm sure the "snap" on that may be a bit much. Wish I had a 19, something a little more stout. Oh well, hopefully I can at least get her to start using the 22!
 
It is indeed a J frame, 1967 model 36. It's in perfect condition, probably fired 10 times in its life. I just cleaned it up, looks like new! I think we're going to try it out and will see what it's like before I turn it over to Mom
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You have pics? :)

Yes, definitely go try it out. I agree with kevin357's suggestion to pick up some 148gr target wadcutters in addition to some regular FMJ practice ammo.

I'd also suggest replacing the factory wood stocks with larger aftermarket grips. Unless you (or Mom) have very small hands, the super-skinny wood stocks fitted to older S&W J frames don't give you much to hold on to, which can make these guns hard to control. A metal Tyler "T-Grip" adapter that fills in area behind the trigger guard helps, but T-Grips are hard to find at retail outlets nowadays, and the company is notoriously slow filling mail or website orders.

Also, the Model 36 came with 3 optional barrels during the 60s: a 1-7/8" (often misidentified as 2") tapered barrel, a 3" tapered barrel with curved sides, and a 3" bull barrel with straight sides (the latter will be marked M36-1 inside the yoke cut rather than M36). The 3" guns are easier to shoot well than the 1-7/8" guns and absorb recoil better, especially with the bull barrel, but they're much less commonplace.
 
Hello Clay, For that 36 recommend...

For practice, using the 148gr lead target load.
Be real comfortable for shooting, then when more confident localing Standard pressure/velocity loads.

the early J-frames were not designed for +P ammo.

Assume that your Mother might have a bit of arthritis, so light loads the way to go.

The .38Spl is maxed pressure rated @ 18,500 psi, the 9mm is 36,000psi.

Hence for snap to the 9, but a stout or heavy bullet .38Spl, will let it be known it's there.
 
Clay,
Just go out and get Ma a Beretta 92 and she will be a happy camper (shooter). No big recoil problem, great shooting gun even for a novice.
SN
 
My suggestions

Step 1. Get GOOD sets of ear protection and eye protection. This is important for safety and for keeping your grandmother comfortable with and while shooting. If she wears glasses, a set of shooting glasses to go over her prescription lenses would be appropriate unless her lenses are impact-resistant.

Prediction: If her ears ring after the first range session, she won't be back.

Step 2. If you don't know them already, commit the 4 gun safety rules to memory, Print them on wallet-sized cards. Print them on regular sheets of paper. Tape these papers to your gun case, keep them in your wallet, tape one to the refrigerator.

Rule # 1

Treat all guns as if they are loaded.

Rule # 2

Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.

Rule # 3

Keep your finger straight, off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until on-target and ready to fire.

Rule # 4

Be absolutely sure of your target, and what is behind it.
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The NRA's web site lists three rules. (With elaboration which I have cut out from my post)

http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
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Step 3

Let her shoot the the .22 rimfire until she it absolutely comfortable with it and the concept of firearms. Despite the fact that her husband carries, is familiar and has them around, she is like a completely new shooter.

Of the guns you have available, the Buckmark is the one. If you had a single-shot, a single-action 22 revolver or double action 22 revolver, I would suggest those first, and in that order. Single shots are pure simplicity and let you concentrate on shooting safely, accurately and on nothing else. Revolvers are conceptually simpler than semi-autos.

Step 4

Consider leaving your Dad out of the first range sessions. Of course, you know your Dad, your Mom and their relationship and I don't, so use your judgment. Just consider it.

Just as it is commonly recognized that it is unwise for anyone to teach their spouse how to drive, it may be inadvisable for your Dad to teach your Mom how to shoot. There are a lot of dynamics in the marriage relationship unrelated to driving or to shooting that, when you examine them unemotionally, materially interfere with the learning process.

Point 5

Let your Mom learn at her own pace. Or slower. (e.g. the first time shooting, there should only be one cartridge in the magazine.) Double taps can come later.

Point 6

I am 61 also, but male. However, I can relate. After a lifetime of not playing piano, I appreciate not having my self-worth or the opinion of my loved ones tied up in my performance trying to learn to read music. (I am drawing an analogy between my learning this new skill your Mom learning her new skill.)

Point 7

She is the student. She is the center of attention of the entire process. Anyone or anything that distracts from that condition should not be present during any part of any lesson (at the range or in the "classroom", wherever it is). People to whom shooting is second nature tend to forget that (unless they also happen to be second-nature teachers, in which case "the student first" is also second nature).

Disclaimer:
I do not know you, so if my advice seems over-obvious, please take into account my ignorance of your experience level. Also, others of all experience levels are reading.

Good Luck and kudos to you for gently bringing a new shooter to the sport and for taking the first step in equipping your mother for self-protection. Encourage her to vote in the next election, if not to spend a little time campaigning wherever her conscience directs.

Lost Sheep
 
Cartridges, recoil and the learning process

I am glad you specified the model number on the 38 snub-nose. I was thinking (being your "grandfather's old S&W 38") it might be chambered for the older cartridge .38 S&W.

The .38 S&W (also known as .38 Colt New Police, .38 Super Police) is not the same as the .38 Smith and Wesson Special (.38 Special). The case dimensions are different and the bullet is slightly larger in diameter. It also is much less powerful. So, firing a 38 special cartridge in a 38 S&W gun (if you could get the cartridge to chamber) would be unsafe because the 38 Special is a higher pressure cartridge than the 38 S&W. Firing a 38 S&W cartridge in a 38 Special gun would be unsafe because the bullet is .004" larger in diameter (.361" vs .357").

Recoil of a .38 S&W would be less than recoil of a .38 Special because the former is less powerful than the latter. Ammunition would be moderately hard to find, though.

Muzzle blast with a snub nose would be off-putting to a new shooter who already has expressed a disinclination to shoot.

The 38 Special and 9mm are close to each other in energy, but revolvers and semi-autos feel different in operation. A lot more parts move in a semi-auto and while the recoil spring absorbs some energy and spreads the force out over time, the slide slamming back and forth disturbs some shooters more than others.

The .40 S&W, I am told, recoils worse than the .45 ACP and a lot worse than the 9mm. The feel is said to be "sharper" than the 45 (with which I am familiar) Let your Mom get accustomed to getting a sight picture, pulling the trigger, the muzzle blast and gun handling in general using the .22 rimfire before you introduce the added factor of recoil and increased noise of any centerfire.

When your Mom is ready to move up to a centerfire, she will have shot the 22 a lot and seen and heard the others being fired. Your Dad will have joined the shooting sessions by then and your Mom will suggest which one she wants to try next. Until then don't suggest it or push any gun on her. Just tell her she can handle (unloaded) all of them and when she finds one she would like to try out, you will walk her through it.

If you can find any "reduced recoil" .40 S&W ammunition, be sure to hold the pistol VERY firmly. Recoil-operated guns require the gun be held as stationary as possible while the slide recoils. A limp hold often results in jams, especially with reduced-recoil loads (I have experienced this myself, being able to cause and prevent jams at will with my practice ammo, simply by holding my 45 ACP very stiffly or very limply.)

I commend you for making this a family affair. At some point your Mom might like to take a course from the NRA or other professional firearms instructing outfit. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the dynamics of personal relationships and teaching relationships often require some adjustments when switching from one role to the other. (Going from Son to Teacher or Husband to Teacher)

Again, good luck.

Lost Sheep
 
I have a 1954 model 36 and my friend absolutely hates the little gun. "It hurts my hands" she says. I don't care for it either, even after I replaced the 'knucklebuster' grips with Hogues.
 
Thanks for the advice folks. Before she shoots, I'll definitely fire it first to see what it's like. For now, I think just shooting the 22 will do for a while. Maybe she'll enjoy it. Who knows though. It just bothers me that she wants a gun in the house and has a CC permit...yet has no idea how to shoot anything! My son and I shoot a ton, so we're very familiar with firearms and shooting. My father hasn't even shot his 40 yet. He was in the military ('nam) so he's not unfamiliar with guns; but we all know that you loose that muscle memory over time. I've stressed a ton that he needs to get out and shoot at least bi-weekly.
 
I am glad you specified the model number on the 38 snub-nose. I was thinking (being your "grandfather's old S&W 38") it might be chambered for the older cartridge .38 S&W.

The .38 S&W (also known as .38 Colt New Police, .38 Super Police) is not the same as the .38 Smith and Wesson Special (.38 Special).
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I went ahead and assumed it was .38Spl because the OP mentioned how much larger the "bullets" (eg. cartridges) were.

.38S&W cartridges are so similar to 9mm Luger that it's hard to tell them apart when you're sorting the cases from your brass tumbler. (Ask me how I know. ;) )
 
I have a 1954 model 36 and my friend absolutely hates the little gun. "It hurts my hands" she says. I don't care for it either, even after I replaced the 'knucklebuster' grips with Hogues.
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This is a common sentiment. It's always bugged me that many gun dealers push J frame .38 snubbies on people who have limited experience with handguns. IMHO a snubby is an expert's gun, not a beginner's gun. They're tricky to shoot accurately because of the short sight radius and light weight (they don't "hang" on target like a heavier full-size gun). It takes the exact right grip technique to keep the gun from hurting your hands and/or flying out of them during rapid-fire, and you have to practice that grip until it becomes second-nature when you pick up the gun.

Mom probably won't like the Model 36 the first time she fires it. Many people don't.
 
i had a s&W 642 airweight .38spl, that seemed to kick a lot more than my glock 19. It was very small and a girlfriend i had, bought this when they sold it to her at academy. She shot 3-4 rounds and said ouch. give me a polymer framed 9mm and now she has a steyr m9-a1. also the .38spls don't have as much stopping power as the 9mm.
 
I have a "collection" of snubbies to choose from and carry in a SOB holster on days I work in the store. My light weight S&W and Colt Cobra are about as nasty to shoot as a PPK I have (hate to shoot them but they carry easy). However, my Colt Det Special is sweet. It is a little heavier but well balanced in my hand and quickly on target. I often decide which I am going to carry as to how I am dressed and accept the gives and takes with each.

Not to be argumentative, but when talking sights on these guns remember what they were designed for...up close and personal. Frankly,in a self defense situation they are useless (sights on a snubbie). If your intent is throwing lead down range go with a longer BBL.

My wife (about the same age and small framed) shoots very little but when she does her favorites are all 9MM's (Glock 19, FS92 & PX4). I am sure if she had to choose just one it would be the Glock for simplicity reasons, rack the slide and go....:D

Bottomline, is to get her comfortable shooting whatever she will shoot. IMHO the best gun to have for Concealed Carry is the one you have with you when you need it be that a 22lr or a 45ACP.:)
 
Glock 19

Clay,

Since you are a Glock owner, as am I, don't forget the 19 comes in a 19c model. This compensated model with a hole in barrel and slide has even less kick than the mild 19.
 
J-Frame Recoil, WHAT am I missing???

On my third "J", [M37}]am using reamining stock of Hornady 140gr XTP's for carry and reload the 140grs for practice.
Changed the grip from the stock ones to the Pachmyar professional gripper "SJ-GR". This is a narrow width grip, that is longer in length which "fits" my hand.

I have no problem with recoil, even after two rounds of bowling pins at my club.

This is standard pressure/velocity ammo, you using "+P"?
 
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