9mm v. 38 Super (kind of rambling)

S

Seminole1986

New member
Before joining this board, I'd seen vague references to 38 super autos in books. Mostly, they refered to pre-WWII pistols. Being on the periphery of handguns, I grew up knowing about 22s, 25s, 38specials, 380s, and, of course, the legendary 357M and 45. But, the 38 super just wasn't even on the radar screen.

Sometime in my very late adolescence, I acquired a vague understanding that the Eurpoeans prefered 9mm. Now, this really confused me because, not only was it a different round, it was also a different nomenclature.

But, throughout this time 38 supers remained deeply buried in the recesses of my mind. Until, that is, I joined this board and discovered that it is still in use.

It is here that I realized two things: one, the 38 super is alive and well; two, along with the 38 special, 380, and even the 357, it can be considered (in a very general sense) a 9mm too. So, this has raised a few questions for me.

First, if the 38 super is an American 9mm, why has it apparently not been as popular as other rounds? I understand the 45 captured America's imagination after WWII. But the 45 didn't eclipse other rounds, they remained in use as well.

Second, why did the 380 remain popular while the 38 super apparently did not? Is the 380 superior in some way?

Third, how does the 38 super compare the the 9mm? Is its velocity similar? How about the energy transmitted to the target? Are its numbers somehow superior to the 9mm or inferior?

Thanks in advance.
 
As I understand it, the .38super came into what little vogue it did because of IDPA. I have not heard of any major gun manufacturing companies chambering the round any more. What chamberings there were, were in the 1911 configuration. The only one I ever heard of was the Colt. I have been told by gunners older than me (I'm 44) that it is an excellent cartridge, and if you want to shoot it, you had better reload. Other than that, you have the sum total of my knowledge on the subject.
 
I've read that pistols in .38 Super enjoyed some popularity in South American countries where civilians couldn't own military caliber weapons.

That being said, I've had a aluminum-frame Colt Commander chambered for the Super since shortly after Nixon started his second term. Very mild recoil, pleasant to shoot. I've never shot anything bigger than an armadillo with it, but it'll kill the hell out of a 'diller!

Whether or not the counter help at a gun store knows what I'm talking about when I got looking for .38 Super ammo is an informal test of their firearms knowledge.....
 
Accuracy was a problem with the early .38 supers. The barrels on early guns were headspaced using the rim of the cartridge. The super has a very small rim for support so this method of headspacing was detrimental to accuracy. Most if not all super barrels today headspace on the mouth of the cartride case. Accuracy in these types of barrels are as good as it gets. Some handguns in .38 super had problems feeding due to the .38 super being semi-rimmed.

The .380 has remained popular not so much for being a great cartridge but more for the type of guns available for it. Most .380s are fairly small and easy to conceal. Until the compact pistol revolution ten or so years ago unless you went custom you couldn't find an easily concealable 9mm.

Velocity in factory ammo is about the same in .38 super as it is in 9mm. The guns in IPSC use fully supported chambers so they can use higher pressure loads. They also use small rifle primers which are harder than pistol primers. Since there are a lot of old .38 supers still around ammunition companies tend to load the cartridge on the light side to be safe.

A new cartridge came out recently called the 9X23 which is basically the same as the .38 super. The 9X23 is designed to work at higher pressures having thicker brass in the web of the case. It doesn't look like its going to make it which is a shame. I really like the .38 super. It's a great cartridge.
 
Hello. Except for CorBon, most .38 Super loads are about as hot as +P 9mm, but can be handloaded considerably hotter.

A super will be in a 1911 or P220 sized handgun rather than those that will handle the shorter forties and 9mms. This could have worked against the .38 Super.

Originally, Colt's Supers headspaced off the semi-rim on the cartridge. Sometimes this worked and many times it did not as was the case in my own super. Groups were the size of a pie plate at 25 yards. Dropping in a BarSto bbl, which headspaces off the case mouth, groups dropped to less than 2" out of the same gun with the same ammo. That could've worked against the Super.

Americans have always seemed to favor the forty-five over the smaller calibers the 1911's been chambered in.

The .38 Super is an underappreciated round capable of very good power and accuracy with relatively few firearms chambered for it and that is a shame in my view.

Best.
 
.38 super

Hello,

I am basing this on what I seem to remember reading from similar posts in other chatrooms, as well as from some books. I may be completely wrong, but I think I am at least partially correct. From what I have gathered, the .38 super round appeared in pistols about 3-8 years before the .357 magnum was created. Supposedly, it was designed to be a more effective weapon for the police and FBI than the .38's that were the norm. One part of this idea was to create a bullet that could penetrate autos more readily than the .38 or the 9mmLuger, so the 38 super was created [actually, the name seems to support this] for this purpose. This was before the current restrictions on running gunfights between LEO and badguys.

Supposedly the reason it never quite caught on was due to manufacturing problems [as mentioned above in headspacing concerns] that led to low reliability and the introduction of the .357 revolver during this period [1935 intoduced]. I would compare the slow demise of this cartidge to the decline in the popularity of both the 10mm and .41Action Express after the introduction of the .40S&W. Afterall, how easy is it to get these cartidges in a gunstore today? The 10 is a lot easier than the .41AE, but both are not as common as 9/40/45/ or even 380.

As far as its current popularity are concerned, I will bow to everyone else's knowledge, because I don't have anything better to offer. Keep in mind that I am trying to recall what others have written. I don't know if this is true or just the actions of a good imagination, but this story does 'ring' true to me. If you look at some of the statistics/ballistics, you can see how this could be true. Keep in mind that the following figures are approximate averages of velocity and muzzle energy for standard loads.
.380= around 920 fps= around 190ft/lbs at muzzle
.38= around 910 fps= around 220ft/lbs at muzzle
9mm= around 1100fps= around 330ft/lbs at muzzle
.38super= around 1100fps= around 340ft/lbs at muzzle
.357= around 1200fps= around 480ft/lbs at muzzle

This isn't even getting into the .40/10/.41AE/.45 issues. I 'eyeballed' approximate averages from the Federal and PMC ammo catalogs. This is NOT scientific, and it includes fmj and hollowpoints in the numbers. However, you can see that the .38super is a bit more powerful than a .38 or a 9mm. Also, the .357 gives a significant increase in energy. Combine that increase with the malfunctions of the early .38super and there really wasn't a huge need to fix the old problems.

I am not an expert and I do not claim the 'story' of the development of the .38super is 100% accurate. If it is it, along with bullet performance, would show why it isn't as common. Also, the .38super is a bit longer, so it doesn't allow as compact of a pistol as a 9mm would.

For those who do know more than me [almost every one of you!] I have a question. Is the .38super also the same round I see listed as 9x21? I know 9x17 is .380 and 9x18 is makarov, but I saw a H&K VP70 in 9x21. What is this cartidge? Someone above mentioned 9x23 also, what pistols come chambered in that?

FWIW,

jason
 
The 9X23 was chambered in the Colt Govenment Model. I have one that also included a barrel in .38 super. You can use both calibers by switching the barrel. I think Colt ceased production of the 9X23 due to a lawsuit from somebody else who had developed the cartridge. It is also called the 9mm super comp to get around the license fees.
 
Hello, THis is my first post, but I have some experience with the super.

It suffered from some inaccuracy problems due to headspacing off the case rim, whichis very small. Modern barrels now headspace off the case mouth and the 38 super is very accurate cartridge. It grew in popularity due to IPSC where competitors in open class now can get 27+ rounds into their guns. This gave birth to fully supported chambers which added a level of safety to the cartridge. It is a predominately a 1911 platform round as that was what it was developed for. Note the same case length of the 45 ACP. There are a few other guns now chambered for the cartridge Sig 220, EAA, Springfield mil-spec, Colt 1991.

9X21 is different in that it is a 9mm case only longer by 2mm. It was an obscure cartridge from europe in countries where civilians could not possess military cartridges. It gained popularity too from IPSC. 9X19 by rules cannot meet major caliber so competitors began using 9x21 in 9mm length guns to gain more magazine capacity. This lasted about a year or two before people converted paras and companies like caspian and Chip McCormick developed Hi Cap 1911 frames (now STI and SV).

John Ricco of CP Bullet fame...developed the 9X23 it is a tapered case with very thick brass. It standard load is supposed to be a 125 grn bullet running at 1450, about 45,000 CUP compared t the 38 super's 30,000 CUP. There were some legal issues between Ricco and Winchester, which ran the initial runs of the brass, which has since been settled.
The 9X23 gives .357 ballistics in a smaller more efficient cartridge for the autoloader. there have been limited runs of guns by Colt and Springfield, that are no longer made.

To add to everyones confusion, here is a list of cartridges in the .355 list. This is not inclusive, just confusing.
9mm, 9x21, 356TSW, 9mm Largo, 380 Colt, 380 Kurtz, 380 Auto, 38 Super, 38TJ, 38 Super Comp, 9mm Super Comp, and 9x23 .

So, that is what I know. Thanks for listening

eerw
 
.38 Super and the 9mm Largo interchangeable?

No. But .38 super is identical in size to an old design called .38 ACP. Be careful never to put Super ammo in an old .38 ACP gun, since guns for the older cartridge are not designed to handle the more powerful .38 super.

I think 9mm Largo is the same size as something else, with the same warnings as for .38 super/.38 ACP. Maybe 9x21?
 
9mm Largo is 9X23. It is NOT the same as either the new 9mmX23 Winchester or .38 Super. Although it may be possible to chamber these in older Largo pistols, they are loaded to higher pressures and is unsafe. The 9mm Largo has a very interesting history. Check out http://www.9mmlargo.com/index.html
 
I have a friend who ran an ammo store for many years here in Phoenix. .38 Super was incredibly popular amongst the handfull of Mexican nationals who came north of the border to purchase ammo. They do have a restriction against the civilian possession of "military" calibers. Other than that, you would be surprised at what they could carry/possess.
 
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