9mm Rifle Thoughts

Daekar

New member
So, for some reason I have always liked the idea of using pistol cartridges in a rifle for jobs that don't require a lot of power. This is mostly just a mental exercise, but if anybody has any real experience just chime in.

My thoughts were along the lines of a single-shot or bolt-action 9mm, up to 18" barrel, and handloaded rounds. The question is... how much can you do with a strong action and atypically loaded 9mm? How about +P+ loaded 90gr rounds for groundhogs at 100yards? What about the same with 147gr bullets and a slow burning powder to really milk the barrel time for all it's worth - get the highest BC you can and maintain that energy out as far as you can?

Yes there are other cartridges... but just for the sake of arguement. How much magic can you work with 9mm?
 
I view a 9mm rifle as more of a novelty & range toy. That's not to say they can't be fun. I also don't like the idea of loading to higher pressures in any cartridge than is the norm. You never know if down the road that round may end up in another gun.
 
I have the Marlin Camp Carbine, also a Spanish Destroyer Carbine. If I had the money-or the skills to build it myself-I would have a 9MM carbine along the lines of my SIG SHRs-with interchangeable barrels to acomodate the various 9MM cartridges-9MM, 380 (why not?), 38 Super, 9MM Largo, 9MM Winchester Magnum. A bolt action so retrieving the brass would be easier.
 
Daekar,
I feel your pain. The burning curiosity. I have resigned myself that a pistol caliber (9mm/.40S&W/.45Auto) rifle makes very little sense for me.

The demise of my pistol caliber dreams comes mostly from Ballistics by the Inch. These considerate folks decided to document the effect of barrel length on pistol rounds.

The 9mm results show that you won't get much more than 1750ish FPS from an 18" barrel with a 90 grain +P loading from Corbon, and anything from 12" to 18" doesn't show significant differences.

Now, using the Hornady Ballistics Calculator, and the ballistic coefficient for the 90 grain XTP in 9mm (0.099), we find that at 100 yards, the bullet will strike with 407ft-lb and a velocity of 1427fps.

Worse yet, in a 10 mph crosswind, your bullet will have a wind drift of 7 inches.

Now, if my post has dampened your desires (probably not, the heart wants what the heart wants) Imagine a miniature Mauser action with a .473" bolt face, a tuned trigger, and a silencer, launching 240 - 250 grain 45 ACP loads at less than 1000fps. That, my friends, is my idea of the ultimate 50 yard plinker!

VR

~Matt
 
if you want a cheap rifle that shoots pistol cartridges like the 9mm, 40 and 45, the high point carbines are cambered in all these. I had the 9mm high point carbine for a few months, good for about 100 yards but not much furthur than that, at least i didnt have much luck further than that
 
Doesn't Ruger make a bolt action 357 now? I know it's not 9mm but I think 357 has a lot more potential to be a rifle round than 9mm.
 
Well actually I was thinking a Thompson/Encore, those barrels are available in anything you want. I was thinking I'd have the rate of twist done appropriately for up to 147gr bullets, which would surely stabilize a 90gr too.

Those numbers posted by ballistics by the inch are actually encouraging... if they were using factory ammo loaded for pistols and they got that kind of power out of 16" barrels, then certainly handloads would do a smidgen better. I expected the 147gr loads to perform poorly out of long barrels because it's intended to be subsonic. They wouldn't load it in such a way that it would go supersonic out of a subgun, would they? I think there is probably more potential here than it appears at first glance. That 1750 from Corbon was probably a pistol load... with the right powder to keep your pressure curve longer for the barrel length, I bet you could kick that up over 1850fps. If you're willing to load +P+, I'd be floored if you couldn't break 2000fps.

Really the 147gr has the most potential, because you can really take advantage of the barrel: longer barrel AND more barrel time. Add in slow powder and I bet we're looking at a good way to kick up retained energy over standard weight factory loads.

The crosswind issue is undebateable, only helpable by more velocity or heavier bullets.

Matt, I love your vision of the ultimate plinking rifle... that's awesome!
 
If you want a plinker, a 9x19 will do. If you want a pistol caliber carbine that is versatile, look for a lever action in .357 Mag (can also shoot .38 Special), .44 Mag (can also shoot .44 Special) or a .45 Colt (one that can shoot full power loads or low power loads).
 
Hmmm, I have and shoot a Ruger PC-9 Carbine. It's the "funnest" weapon to shoot that I own. Now, as far as killing anything, I'd say it would do a pretty good job on rabbits and similar small critters. As far as the 2 legged variety, I'd be perfectly happy being armed with this in an urban environment. The mags hold 15 rounds (or you can get the 30rnd variety) of any kind of ammo from ball to +P+. It's accurate as hell (Remember shot placement?) Plus, It's heavy enough to use as a club.
 
As long as you don't plan to do any long range sniping I don't see a problem. You should probably be good out to 100 yards plus some.

I have my 1873 Winchester Reproduction in .45 LC and a pair of .45 of .45 LC pistols.

A semi auto carbine type would be even better.:D
 
I'll second Hitme's opinion. I would trust my PC-9 with my life in most any home- or self-defense scenario out to 50-60 yards. Very accurate at those ranges, and the mag capacity compensates for the lack of power.

It's my favorite rifle to shoot as well, lots of fun. And it's a ruggedly built weapon that will hold up under hard conditions.
 
While it would likely work for smaller varmints at longer ranges, there are many better choices. I have a Ruger PC9 as a companion for my Ruger P series pistols. This carbine mounted with an Aimpoint is a real performer past 100 yards.
If one is limited to a single ammo like 9mm or 45 ACP a carbine could add a lot of needed range to their pistol ammo. Definitely not something I would take deer hunting but if I had nothing else available, I could make it work. My stable includes both a Ruger and a Marlin Camp 9 which shares mags with a S&W pistol. These provide options for several scenarios if you're into that stuff.
 
I'd personally like to have a Destroyer carbine but I've only seen a couple and they looked about like you would expect an old surplus rifle to look and, anyway, I didn't have the money. Besides that, getting another magazine (and I think one didn't have one to begin with) would be difficult. Otherwise, it seems like a practical weapon.

Ruger made some .44 magnum bolt-actions using their rotary magazine design. It wouldn't be a plinker, however. Someone else made a semi-auto version of their submachine gun after the war but I can't think of the name right now. The SMG was used, I believe, by the Marines during the war, at least in some numbers.

In theory, a shoulder stock attached to a pistol or revolver makes sense. It doesn't make the bullet shoot any harder but with the stock attached it could make hitting the target easier. They were in vogue for a few decades from around 1900 but they were not legal in this country for a long time and for all I know, they still are. The Luger, the Browning Hi-Power and even some early Colt .45s could be had with them, as well as a few other models but the best known one was the Mauser C-96. I owned one with the stock when I lived in Germany.

As I said, in theory it makes sense. However, if the shoulder stock attachment is not good and rigid, the theory tends to fall apart. Of course, mine was about sixty years old and getting close to retirement age, so allowances shoudl be made. There were also stocks for a few target type revolvers and single shots before the war but I don't know what people thought of them when they were available. That is, if they were available. Many of the mouth-watering goodies you see in old catalogs may have actually been hard to find on a dealer's shelf and that's still true for some things.
 
If you take in consideration the level of performance and typical expectation of a 9mm pistol cartridge to be effective and accurate in the hands of a competent user at 25yards. Then you can expect a typical 9mm round based on that same envelope being shot from a rifle with iron sights and to gain 50 yards. This translates to a 3x increase in overall effectiveness. Not too bad if you look at it this way.

A typical auto pistol with an 4 inch barrel has a sight radius of about 5 3/4ths inches and a 16 in barreled rifle at 12-13 inch if it has a barrel mounted rear sight and approximately 24 inches with a rear sight located on a tang or rear of the reciever. These are all guesses as this well vary rifle to rifle. It is a generalization for illustration purposes. YMMV. It is still an increase of 2-4x in the sight radius on an iron sighted firearm, which is going to give you about that much more in accuracy. Although it may not mean you will be able to shrink your groups accordingly as that will be realated to the ammuntion and mechanical accuracy of the particular rifle in question, along with your ability to utilize it to the maximum as well.

What you will gain in extra barrel length, increased sight radius, more stable sight picture from having a stock and proper cheek weld makes it a worthwhile consideration for applications where the intended target is the same as it would normally be.

In the case of the 9mm. We are in general looking at two legged predators. It is reasonable to expect 75-100 yards out of a 9mm carbine and the potential of being twice as accurate or faster shot to shot is somethng to consider. Imagine the confidence increase to know that shooting a 4 inch group at 25 yards is a cake walk compared to shooting that with a handgun.

It won't match what a .357 Magnum would gain, yet at the same time, you can't be sure that a 300-400 fps increase in velocity out of that round using a bullet designed for SD won't fragment prematurely and fail to penetrate deep enough. Granted you can use a more heavily built bullet in a .357 Magnum chambered rifle and gain a great deal more then any 9mm could ever hope to match, it would still be related more to you intended use of said chambering and loading.

A 9mm carbine or similar would be significant improvment over a pistol for self defense, especially if you are not the best shot with a pistol. Wether it is from lack of money to train, lack of time or just plain old laziness. You can be better served , yet there are drawbacks as well. The increased size of the platform will make it far easier for you to be disarmed and it may require both hands to be effective with, whereas a pistol can be used with only one hand and the shooter should be able to be effective with only one hand using a pistol.

Yes the two handed method, with a pistol, is more stable and lends itself to faster follow up shots and to some degree accuracy, but it is still a handgun and the original intent is one handed operation, with the second hand being considered a luxury you may not always have in certain situations.

I say a carbine or rifle chambered in 9mm my not be the best compromise. Much like the idea of coyboys using the same pistol round in their levergun it holds up in the modern age to the same scrutiny. It is a compromise and within those limits it may well prove to be quite useful.
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Dr. Dirt Nap prescribes two nuclear nytol, up the potency of the dosage, and they call no one in the morning. May they sleep well. ;)
 
Daekar,
I feel your pain. The burning curiosity. I have resigned myself that a pistol caliber (9mm/.40S&W/.45Auto) rifle makes very little sense for me.

The demise of my pistol caliber dreams comes mostly from Ballistics by the Inch. These considerate folks decided to document the effect of barrel length on pistol rounds.

The 9mm results show that you won't get much more than 1750ish FPS from an 18" barrel with a 90 grain +P loading from Corbon, and anything from 12" to 18" doesn't show significant differences.

Now, using the Hornady Ballistics Calculator, and the ballistic coefficient for the 90 grain XTP in 9mm (0.099), we find that at 100 yards, the bullet will strike with 407ft-lb and a velocity of 1427fps.

Worse yet, in a 10 mph crosswind, your bullet will have a wind drift of 7 inches.

Now, if my post has dampened your desires (probably not, the heart wants what the heart wants) Imagine a miniature Mauser action with a .473" bolt face, a tuned trigger, and a silencer, launching 240 - 250 grain 45 ACP loads at less than 1000fps. That, my friends, is my idea of the ultimate 50 yard plinker!

VR

~Matt

Thats correct with commercial ammo but slower powders can get a considerable increase in speed from rifle barrels..

I have a non +p load with blue dot that gets 2090fps with a 90gr xtp and 1650fps with 124gr...:D
 
Here's anice rifle in .357 Magnum,,,

I have no idea if this is in your range of consideration,,,
But you did mention a Thompson Contender rifle,,,
This isn't too far away from that.

HR-357.jpg

It is an H&R Handi-Rifle chambered in .357 magnum,,,
I can hold 2" groups at 100 yards with it.

Inexpensive and reliable,,,
My two favorite attributes in any hand or long gun,,,
I bought it as a companion to my Colt Trooper Mk-III in .357 magnum.

Just a thought,,,

Aarond
 
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I have a 9mm conversion for an AR15, it needs some tweaking so it's not 100% yet but it's still a fun little range toy. me and my brother decided we were going to have a competition so we set a 12" round of tamarack at about 30 yards and both of us took 6 shots at it, only my brother was using a 480. I got about 6-8 inches of penetration using 115gr FMJs. I dont remember what kind of ammo he was using but it was FMJ and he only got about an extra inch of penetration on average.

my brother in law has a hi point 9 that is pretty reliable but doesn't have a lot going for it as far as trigger and ammo cap. it is one of the more affordable options though and it's pretty accurate once you get past the trigger.

I rented a beretta CX4 at my local range one day when they first got them in and it had the best trigger, a nice ammo cap, was fairly ergonomic and was well balanced. it is one of the more expensive options and the stock, receiver and hand guard appear to be a single piece of polymer so take down, cleaning and maintenance would probably be quite difficult.

all of these carbines have fairly poor triggers but the Beretta seemed to have the best.
as far as simplicity I would go with the Ar but I'm fairly biased in that I was already familiar with the platform.
as far as ammo capacity the AR has all others beat in that depending on the kit you get you can get up to 35 round mags.
as far as reliability it's a tie between the hi point and the beretta. I haven't used hollowpoints in any of them so I cant tell how they would react in a hunting/SD situation
as for price the hi point takes the cake.
I believe that there are a few companies that make thompson center barrels in 9mm so there's a break open on the market, you just have to look. as for +p loads I've never used them but the TC wouldn't have issues since it's designed to take the force of a 45/70.
 
Some real experience

Most guys are just guessing. I can tell you exactly what you want to know. I have a destroyer carbine. I've made a chamber adaptor for it to fire 9mm luger ammo and I've used 38 super brass with the rims turned off and starline 9mm largo brass so just a bit of experience. With 9X23 "largo" or super brass you can push a 115 grain bullet to 1550 fps or so. Change to 9mm luger brass and you can push things to about 1450 fps using the same bullets but 9mm luger appropriate loads. You get a lot more power out of a 9mm rifle than a 22 magnum. However, practically speaking a 357 rifle is more flexible. I have one of those too. I picked up my destroyer when they were about $100 so it was a cheap toy to play with. It will handle cast lead bullets well and will flip a squirrel at 1200fps and lead bullets at that speed will shoot close enough to the sights. Magazines were available from Sarco for about $6 but it's been a few years. I have several that I ordered. Tolerances are spotty so these are not the most finely crafted surplus arm but for what I paid I could probably triple my money these days. If you can find one cheap with reasonable bore you will have a pretty decent ranch gun if nothing is broken. Parts are basically non existant.

At 25 yards lead loads shoot under 1.5 inches and at 100 yards jjacketed bullets will shoot under 5 inches with the V shaped open sights.
 
I remember an interesting article from some ancient gun magazine about having a pistol and a rifle in the same chambering. This article did not even mention 9mm because it wasn't the hot cartridge at the time. The .357 was. All of the rifles were either custom creations or some variation, like a Martini action with a .357 barrel, although the most interesting was a lever action Winchester converted to .45 ACP, which they claimed was a real achievement and I believe them.

But no 9mm rifles.
 
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