9mm reloading issue

K

ktscull

Inactive
First off I'm new to reloading. Here's what I'm working with... RCBS special-5 press, LEE 4-DIE set, mixed once fired cleaned and polished brass, small pistol CCI no 500 primers, Accurate No. 7 powder and X-treme bullets 9mm 115r round nose copper plated. My book 'Modern Reloading' says 5.7 min to 6.7 max powder of the no. 7 for 115 gr copper plated....I reloaded 15 at 5.8 gr and 10 at 6.4 gr. l went to test with the first batch really low recoil and didn't eject the cases. so i figured too little powder. the other set, same low recoil didn't eject cases, cases even got stuck in the gun...So I'm confused on whats going on.d on whats going on. :confused: Any help would be much appreciated
 
Looking at actual AA load data, every 115 gr bullet except Rainier calls for a much heavier load of #7 than you are working with. Too bad they don't have specific "recipes" for Xtreme, they show Berry's plated, Nosler and Sierra jacketed and even cast with heavier loads than for Rainier. Which is what I figure your Lee book picked up.

I would cautiously increase the load until I got function.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WesternLoadGuide1-2016_Web.pdf
 
Read from a free 1985 Accurate Powders Loading brochure enclosed with a AA powder purchase.

115 gr FMJ___Min charge/ 8.0 grains of #7__1150fps
Max charge/ 9.0 grains of #7__1280fps

The 8.0 gr. charge is very accurate and has enough energy to cycle my H-K P7-M8 slide.
 
Obviously extremely under loaded. The Lyman manual with a 115 gr jacketed bullet shows AA#7 loads from 8.0 starting to 10.0 max, combined with the benefit of lower pressures than from most other powders.
 
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My book 'Modern Reloading' says 5.7 min to 6.7 max powder of the no. 7 for 115 gr copper plated....I reloaded 15 at 5.8 gr and 10 at 6.4 gr.
Click to expand...
my OAL are 1.565-1.1643
Click to expand...
From the site:
115 (P) RAIN RN 5.7 1,032 6.7 1,165 34,399 1.140

I think your OAL is contributing to the under-powered charges.
 
Hey ktscull I emailed xtreme this week about load data not being widely published and here is my question and the response from Guy Neill one of their ballistics engineers. Not sure if it will fully answer your question but may help guide you a bit since your new and using xtreme bullets. Thanks buddy and good luck.

My email to xtreme; I just purchased 6k rounds of a mix of 124gr and 115gr plated RN. With most manufacturers not putting your bullets in their load data yet I was curious to know if you would advise using berry's RN or berrys RNDS (double struck), or something else all together? There is enough diffrence between those two loads to ask. I noticed on your site it states the bullets are struck and then struck once more. Does this mean double struck? Thanks in advance!

Their response; Yes, the “struck, then struck again” is a double strike situation.

-The load data you mention should work.- Use normal procedure and start low and work up.

Generally you can use data for jacketed bullets for the plated bullets, but, again, start low until you see how it all comes together in your gun with your components.

Guy Neill
Ballistics Engineer
Howell Munitions & Technology, Inc.
815 D Street, Lewiston, ID 83501
P: 208-553-1660 | E: guyn@hmtgroup.us
 
Lots of good stuff already mentioned.

I'm going to go high-level and speak more generally . . .

AA#7 is an awfully slow propellant to be under those light 115's. I'm not surprised you're running into issues. I would think, with most guns, you're going to have to really pump up the charge weights to get that combination to run right (clean, consistent, accurate, and cycling properly). You're stepping up to the plate with an 0-2 count, in my opinion.

Granted, I tend to choose propellants faster than most handloaders for a given application - I freely admit my bias. As an example, I use AA#7 for my "95% thottle" 158gn 357 Magnum rounds. The stuff is that potent (read: 'slow'). I would never consider AA#7 for 115's. Full-throttle 147's, yes; but 115's, no.

My full-throttle 115's go atop AA#5; and that's full full throttle. There is no need whatsoever for anything slower. All other 115's see TiteGroup, AA#2, W231/HP-38, and even Bullseye. All work great (especially AA#2) and can deliver excellent performance - just short of full-throttle.

If AA#7 is all you have, then it's all you have - pump 'em up if you want a decent running round. But the much better move is to go to a faster propellant, if that's something you can do.
 
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I shoot a lot of Xtreme 115 gr plated RNs from a Sig P229 w/9mm top, Glock 22 Gen 4 w/ Lone Wolf 9mm barrel, Beretta M9, Springfield XD9, Walther PPS M2 and Sig P320C. They all shoot flawlessly with a load of Titegroup @4.3 gr and a COAL of 1.135 nominal. I have a Dillon 550B and use their dies. The OAL on the 9mm rounds varies by +/- .002 or so, probably because of variations in the shape of the bullets.
 
IMI (Israelis Military Industries) originally exported #7 as a military surplus powder pulled from 9mm UZI sub-machine ammo. Due to a Israeli newly designed and troop issue.> Galil assault rifle/s.
Which replaced the outdated UZI and everything else used battle field arms.

#7 is a excellent powder for the 9mm. 115 to 147. Its not the best powder choice for those fellers who are stingy powder scale'rs. But for all others when measured correctly it can't be double charged and being a easy to measure ball propellant which quite often requires a magnum primer. #7 ignites with the use of Standard s/pistol primers.
I found it to be the best 9mm powder available for my purposes. Since I do have a progressive press. Its a ideal powder for use in those. (easy measuring ball & no double charging.) >Perfect!!
 
originally exported #7 as a military surplus powder pulled from 9mm UZI sub-machine ammo.
Click to expand...

Yes, carbine-length barrels would bring the 115/AA#7 combination into balance. Barrel length is (or at least, should be) a major consideration.
 
"...OAL is contributing to the under-powered charges..." Has nothing whatever to do with it. Manuals vary.
SAAMI Max OAL for 9mm is 1.169". Also the OAL given by Hodgdon for a 115 FMJ. Use that. No idea why Hodgdon gives 1.100" for a cast 115 RN. 1.169" works though.
Accurate used a 4" barrel for their tests. Oddly enough so did Hodgdon. Most likely on a universal receiver, but who knows. Doesn't matter anyway.
"...reloaded 15 at 5.8 gr and 10 at 6.4 gr..." Why? Load 5 of each load from the start load and going up by half a grain to the max load. Don't just pick a few and hope.
 
So let me see if I got this right.
If a recipe calls for an OAL of 1.10" in a 9mm case and you load it to 1.16", the extra volume in the case has no effect on the velocity?

Yes, you can use an OAL of 1.169 if your chamber accepts it without issue but to say it has no effect on velocity is not correct in a small, pistol cartridge. I can see it having a limited effect in a longer case like a .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 magnum, etc. but the smaller pistol cartridges have less room for error. IMO of course since I am not a chemist or physicist or any other super educated person in those fields.
 
As far as OAL is concerned, I load a dummy a little long and gradually seat deeper until the round will let the gun go into battery. The I load a dummy with a fresh bullet at the established OAL and try again. Naturally this is for semi auto guns only.

I am not one to pay much attention to book OALs since they are not loading for my guns.

To settle all the nay sayers, I have been doing this for over 50 years and have never had a problem.
 
5.7-8.2

This is how I would design this load.

First, there are 2 plated Bullets loaded to vastly different max loads, I would probably avoid that powder, but let's say I'm sticking with it. I would load 10 of each charge 5.7, 6.3, 6.9, 7.5, 8.1.

I would set OAL by the plunk test and make these 5 loads.

Since you know 6.4 won't run the gun, my next try would be:
6.6, 7.0, 7.4, 7.8, 8.2.

Compare the amount of primer drag you are getting on your primers compared to factory ammo. This is a pressure sign. Factory level is max pressure.

Use accuracy to find your ax load. IMO, your best accuracy will likely be 7.4-7.8.
 
Do not use 1985 information. Accurate reformulated all powders a few years ago and all data changed.
Berry's recommends using jacketed data up to the MIDPOINT of jacketed data.
6.4gr of AA#7 is what I use for low recoil cast lead loads for my best friend - she does not like recoil. Works just fine.
I have some plated data from years of using Accurate #7, and liking it, as a 9mm propellant.
First, the BOOK data from the source, Western Powders, for a Round Nose Double Strike plated bullet, 7.0 to 8.2 grains of AA#7. My best results with the Berrys and RMR 115gr plated was with 7.5gr AA#7. Worked quite well. YMMV, and all data is for academic purposes, etc., ad nauseum. Downloadable/printable load data found here.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/
 
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