9mm Para Luger NATO
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Parabellum is German which means "prepare for war" (loose translation)
Luger (ie George Luger was the inventor of the German Luger service pistol.
NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
What these three words have to do with one another is they are used to designate the 9x19 loading.
The 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger and 9mm NATO are all the same.
Same caliber different name.
Luger (ie George Luger was the inventor of the German Luger service pistol.
NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
What these three words have to do with one another is they are used to designate the 9x19 loading.
The 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger and 9mm NATO are all the same.
Same caliber different name.
Well, they're almost all the same. The designations 9mm Parabellum and 9mm Luger refer to the same commercial loading within SAMMI(Doh! That should beSAAMI) specs, but the NATO load is a bit hotter than SAMMI specs. Other than that minor detail they are the same.
(edited for goffy spelling error.
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(edited for goffy spelling error.
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9mmepiphany
New member
only a small correction..."parabellum" is latin
Thank you 9mmepiphany if you hadn't pointed out it was Latin I would have had to. Now the original quote from which it is derived is, "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" trans: If you desire peace, prepare for war" However the language may not be correct. The quote I've found is:
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" - Vegetius (Flavius Vegetius Renatus) (Epitoma rei militaris, Prologue, 3)
Translation: "Who wants peace [should] prepare for war"
They both mean precisely the same thing, except one is shorter.
As a side note. Pacem is the accusative form of "Pax" as in the "Pax Roman" the Roman peace. So when people refer to the "Pax Americana" which they... for some reason or another interpret as "peace under American terms" rather than simply, "The American Peace" you'll know what they're talking about.
Most historians, however, consider America's dominance of the world more like Athen's dominance of Greece, than Rome's of Europe.
The German translation of "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum":
Wenn du den Frieden willst, so rüste zum Kriege.
Or in a more pithy form:
Willst du Frieden, bereite Krieg vor!
-Morgan
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" - Vegetius (Flavius Vegetius Renatus) (Epitoma rei militaris, Prologue, 3)
Translation: "Who wants peace [should] prepare for war"
They both mean precisely the same thing, except one is shorter.
As a side note. Pacem is the accusative form of "Pax" as in the "Pax Roman" the Roman peace. So when people refer to the "Pax Americana" which they... for some reason or another interpret as "peace under American terms" rather than simply, "The American Peace" you'll know what they're talking about.
Most historians, however, consider America's dominance of the world more like Athen's dominance of Greece, than Rome's of Europe.
The German translation of "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum":
Wenn du den Frieden willst, so rüste zum Kriege.
Or in a more pithy form:
Willst du Frieden, bereite Krieg vor!
-Morgan
bad_dad_brad
New member
Well said CaesarI.
Im not very knowledgeable on the 9mm forum so heres a question for you guys, Whats the difference between a 9mm luger and a 9x18 makarov? Other then the dimensions of the case 9x19 and 9x18. Can you shoot either round out of the Makarov? I have been toying with the idea of picking up a Makarov or a CZ75 combat. Which is the better deal. I know the CZ is a little more but I was wondering about the availability of ammo for the Mak.
Mike in VA
New member
SAAMI ie the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Insittute, an industry standards group which sets specs for guns & ammo.
re: shooting 9x18 in a 9x19 and vice versa, not a good idea, The 9x18 may fit in a 9x19, it's not clear that it wiill reliably cycle the action. 9x19 in a 9x18 won't fit (too long) and it it will fire at all, you won't like the results. the Mak is a great gun and a hell of a bang for the buck, but I'd go with the CZ, also a fine gun, a real good value, very refined and acurate, and shoots 9x19, a ubiquitous (and inexpensive) load with a wide variety of loadings (many more than what you can get for the Mak). My 2 cents, YMMV
re: shooting 9x18 in a 9x19 and vice versa, not a good idea, The 9x18 may fit in a 9x19, it's not clear that it wiill reliably cycle the action. 9x19 in a 9x18 won't fit (too long) and it it will fire at all, you won't like the results. the Mak is a great gun and a hell of a bang for the buck, but I'd go with the CZ, also a fine gun, a real good value, very refined and acurate, and shoots 9x19, a ubiquitous (and inexpensive) load with a wide variety of loadings (many more than what you can get for the Mak). My 2 cents, YMMV
9X21, and .357SIG (though it was mentioned above). Both shoot a 9mm bullet.
The revolver bullets are slightly larger than the .355" 9mm. But they should operate.
Re: 9mm Makarov, 9X18. NO! DEFINITELY NO! The 9X18 fires a 9.3mm bullet. The 9X19 is too powerful for a Makarov, though... you might be able to fire it, if it does fit in, but it'd be like shooting out of a Musket. Kiss accuracy good bye. Firing 9X18 Makarov in a 9X19? HA! Bullet gets stuck, gun blows up. Not 100% sure on this cause I haven't tried it. But any exchange between 9X19, 9X17, 9X21, 9X23 etc. and the 9X18 Mak is a bad bad idea.
There's another 9mm, the 9mm Police I believe it's called that is a 9X18. I'm pretty sure it fires a 9mm bullet (not 9.3), but I'd have to check again. It's primarily in Europe. You can see what it looks like (rel to 9X19, 9X17) at Hirtenberger's wesbite. Looks about like the Makarov in performance terms.
Hirtenberger's page? http://www.hirtenberger.at/e_hpag_start.html
and thanks Bad-dad-brad thanks even more for spelling Caesar correctly.
-Morgan
The revolver bullets are slightly larger than the .355" 9mm. But they should operate.
Re: 9mm Makarov, 9X18. NO! DEFINITELY NO! The 9X18 fires a 9.3mm bullet. The 9X19 is too powerful for a Makarov, though... you might be able to fire it, if it does fit in, but it'd be like shooting out of a Musket. Kiss accuracy good bye. Firing 9X18 Makarov in a 9X19? HA! Bullet gets stuck, gun blows up. Not 100% sure on this cause I haven't tried it. But any exchange between 9X19, 9X17, 9X21, 9X23 etc. and the 9X18 Mak is a bad bad idea.
There's another 9mm, the 9mm Police I believe it's called that is a 9X18. I'm pretty sure it fires a 9mm bullet (not 9.3), but I'd have to check again. It's primarily in Europe. You can see what it looks like (rel to 9X19, 9X17) at Hirtenberger's wesbite. Looks about like the Makarov in performance terms.
Hirtenberger's page? http://www.hirtenberger.at/e_hpag_start.html
and thanks Bad-dad-brad thanks even more for spelling Caesar correctly.
-Morgan
9x17...9mm Short.....380acp
Bullet is...0.355"
case base...0.3740
case mouth..0.3730
9x18...9mm....Makarov
bullet is...0.363....0.008" larger
case base...0.3917...0.0177" larger
case mouth..0.3902...0.0172" larger
shooting .380acp in a Makarov could
lead to a CASE RUPTURE and
accuracy would be terrible .
380acp.....85jhp....1000fps
380acp.....95fmj.....955fps
9mm Mak....95fmj....1060fps
The Mak has a slight edge .
Keep them separate ,
Ponty
Bullet is...0.355"
case base...0.3740
case mouth..0.3730
9x18...9mm....Makarov
bullet is...0.363....0.008" larger
case base...0.3917...0.0177" larger
case mouth..0.3902...0.0172" larger
shooting .380acp in a Makarov could
lead to a CASE RUPTURE and
accuracy would be terrible .
380acp.....85jhp....1000fps
380acp.....95fmj.....955fps
9mm Mak....95fmj....1060fps
The Mak has a slight edge .
Keep them separate ,
Ponty
Chris Pinkleton
New member
Just a minor datum--
I have a book("Great Combat Handguns," auth. Leroy Thompson and Rene Smeets) filled with handgun tests. One of the pistols tested was a Makarov. This was before the pistol or ammo was common in the West(1987). 9mm poilce and 9mm short(.380 auto) ammo was fired through the Makarov, resulting in "reasonable accuracy" -- this seems to equate to something like 8-10" groups at about 25 yards.
Judging by the text, it seems firing .380 through Makarovs was deemed acceptable in Western Europe at the time. It also startes than 9mm police has a diameter "slightly less than genuine Makarov." It is unclear whether 9mm police is merely a hot-loaded .380, or a true 9 x 18. the text notes it is chambered in the Walther PP Super and SIG-Sauer P230.
Chris P.
I have a book("Great Combat Handguns," auth. Leroy Thompson and Rene Smeets) filled with handgun tests. One of the pistols tested was a Makarov. This was before the pistol or ammo was common in the West(1987). 9mm poilce and 9mm short(.380 auto) ammo was fired through the Makarov, resulting in "reasonable accuracy" -- this seems to equate to something like 8-10" groups at about 25 yards.
Judging by the text, it seems firing .380 through Makarovs was deemed acceptable in Western Europe at the time. It also startes than 9mm police has a diameter "slightly less than genuine Makarov." It is unclear whether 9mm police is merely a hot-loaded .380, or a true 9 x 18. the text notes it is chambered in the Walther PP Super and SIG-Sauer P230.
Chris P.
Ruben Nasser
New member
Some more 9mm ....
9mm Browning long, obsolete
38 ACP, or 38 auto (a semi rimmed 9x23)
38 super (identical to 38 auto, stronger loading)
9mm Ultra, or Police, or 9x18 (its case IS 18mm long), discontinued
9mm Glisenti, is an obsolete downloaded 9x19
9mm Steyr, obsolete, very similar to the 9mm Largo
9mm Mauser, (aprox. 9x25) obsolete
9mm Federal, a 9x19 Rimmed (discontinued, for revolvers)
9mm Bayard long, or 9mm Largo, is identical to 38 super (9x23) but rimless (38 super is semi rimmed)
9mm win magnum (aprox. 9x30), dicontinued
9x23 win, very similar to 9mm Largo, stronger case
9x21, some euro countries do not allow civilian 9mmPara guns, so the 9x21 was created for use in the same guns
356 TSW (Team S&W), is really a 9x21.5 used for IPSC competition (discontinued?)
Probably there are even more...
9mm Browning long, obsolete
38 ACP, or 38 auto (a semi rimmed 9x23)
38 super (identical to 38 auto, stronger loading)
9mm Ultra, or Police, or 9x18 (its case IS 18mm long), discontinued
9mm Glisenti, is an obsolete downloaded 9x19
9mm Steyr, obsolete, very similar to the 9mm Largo
9mm Mauser, (aprox. 9x25) obsolete
9mm Federal, a 9x19 Rimmed (discontinued, for revolvers)
9mm Bayard long, or 9mm Largo, is identical to 38 super (9x23) but rimless (38 super is semi rimmed)
9mm win magnum (aprox. 9x30), dicontinued
9x23 win, very similar to 9mm Largo, stronger case
9x21, some euro countries do not allow civilian 9mmPara guns, so the 9x21 was created for use in the same guns
356 TSW (Team S&W), is really a 9x21.5 used for IPSC competition (discontinued?)
Probably there are even more...