9mm indoor penetration vs .223

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thequickad

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according to an FBI ballistic tests I read from a gun magazine, the 9mm cartridges penetrates an average of 24.95" of plywood vs 10" for .223.
.40SW did 21.5"

The study suggests that most of the handgun cartridges over-penetrate for close quarter battle and .223 is a much better round.

comments?
 
Try it for yourself. Take a 9mm. out rabbit hunting and shoot a rabbit, nice small hole in it. Take an AR in .223 and shoot a rabbit with it nice bloody mess. A .223 round is moving so fast and has so little weight that they usually fragment upon entering. There is something to say about these ultra high speed rounds out now like the .400 Cor-Bon and .357 Sig. They are usually more accurate and they expend there energy in a shorter time therefore dumping most of the kinetic energy in the target instead of penetrating the target and wasting energy.
My Glock 21 with .400 Cor-Bon barrel blows bunnies up and is alot more accurate that my original .45 barrel. The .400 headspaces on the case shoulders like a rifle and is more accurate for it.

My personal house gun is an CAR-15 with 55gr. soft points and 20 round magazine.
 
Woody,

That's when you know you're a man... when you can blow up one of those viscious 3 pound bunnies with a Glock.

Keep protecting us from those bunnies,
:)
Ben

(I probably didn't make any friends by saying that)

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited September 26, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited September 30, 1999).]
 
Hello, sir. It is true that some of the frangible .223 loads do penetrate less than some commonly-used police calibers in "soft" targets. I don't have stats available for hard target penetration. I seem to recall that Federal makes a 40 gr commercial round in .223 called "Blitz" and it's used by some penal institutions for use where they may need to shoot a man in a highly crowded area and cannot risk any overpenetration. My personal load of choice is either Federal's 55 gr BallisticTip or Winchester's 50 grain version of the same thing. Best.
 
I think that if you are going to compare apples to oranges at least define the mission the platform is to be utilized. In this case the mission is for CQB. If the operating environment a small apartment with confined spaces in which to move about, then a handgun round in a handgun would seem to be the prefered way to operate. On the other hand if the operating environment is a large home with wide halls and spacious rooms then perhaps the advantages of more rapid target aquisition and energy to target could be actualized with a long arm/ .223 platform.
The other variable to throw in is the utilization of pre-fragmented ammunition. Various manufacturers of high quality pre-fragmented ammo make these rounds in both pistol and rifle calibers all the up to .308 and 30-06. Anyone wish to guess what a .308 Glaser round would do to a man? I wouldn't feel to unsecure having a HK-91 with a sliding stock and 30 rounds in the magazine. Woried aboud overpenetration with this? Then step down to .223 glasers and a CAR-15. The blast and noise is pretty harsh though. Better put on those Wolf-Ears before you fight with a rifle indoors.
 
Go here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs13.htm

.223 in the new M2 and M4 packages are just as
manuverable as a handgun and though the shorter barrel lengths take away from those 600 meter head shots, they give just the right amount of velocity for under 50 meters. In other words, they work great indoors, QCB. Training also benifits. Train on the handgun and AR rifle, or an AR rifle in different barrel lenghts?
 
Mr. Seanc

I am a fan of AR-15. I'm not Chuck Taylor but I have completed a few urban/tactical rifle courses so I am a little familiar with its capabilities. Please explain how a shoulder weapon is more manuverable than a handgun indoors? Even a 1911 is shorter than the length of the M-4's buttstock.
As I stated ealier, I am a fan of the AR-15, however the AR suffers from severe vertical parallex with its sights so elevated above its boreline. Under outdoor conditions beyond 25 yards its not that much of a problem. To make quick, consistent head shots at 5 yards and under takes a bit of practice. It's a very different sight picture than for the longer shots.
If I had to use a shoulder fired weapon in tight CQB, then my choice would be a much smaller gun and one with lower sights relative to the boreline. Something on the order of HK's PDW or MP-5K would be better. This wouldn't be my first choice in tight CQB, but I think it's better than the M-4.
 
I agree that a shoulder fired gun would not be nearly as manuverable indoors for CQB as a pistol. However, if you are talking about a shot inside of 5 yards, possibly in the dark or at least in low-lighting situations, why wouldn't you just sight along the side of the barrel? If you have a BG in your house at night, chances are you would just be firing at a silhouette anyway. Preferably from a concealed position.
I'm no expert at this by any means, but it just seems like common sense. Please correct me if I am wrong, my life and that of my family may depend on it someday.
Thanks! :)


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RKBA!

"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsay Clark

"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale
 
If you're looking for a .223 round that won't over penetrate, look no further. The Hornady TAP (Tactical Application Police) which is also available As the "VX Varmint Express" Line. It is available in 40, 55, 60 and 75 grain configurations.

The 55 gr when fired out of a 14.5 in. M-4 penetrates 7 inches in 10% ballistic gelatin. This is vastly superior to the 9mm or .40. As an added bonus, it retains 0 weight, fragmenting with terrific results. It hits like a sledgehammer.

As far as manueverability...shoulder you AR and have someone measure the distance from your back to the muzzle. Now, do the same thing with a handgun, while in a shooting position. You'll probably be surprised. Of course, I realize that you can tuck a handgun in, but you can also depress the muzzle on a long-gun....So with that in mind...give me the .223. It works!
 
Sorry for being dumb guys but I'm having trouble getting my head around this. Are we talking about frangible .223 loads only or standard jacketed cartridges, because to me the latter will penetrate and keep on penetrating, 7" in balistic gelatin, I could throw it harder than that !. I've only just read a response someplace else that related the story of an AD from a Mini-14 in .223, the bullet went through 8 internal walls in an apartment block before stopping.... in a sleeping 12 year old girl killing her stone dead. Surely standard rounds in a .223 will cut through anything compared to handgun rounds, all of which are grossly underpowered in any terms (velocity, energy or penetration) by comparison to even a "lite" rifle round like the .223. Surely this cartridge is strictly for the outdoors, if only because of muzzle blast, but as stated prviously if we are talking frangible rounds made out of compressed cookie crumbs then OK, personally I prefer HPBT in heavier weights like 64 gr, they show up much better IMHO.

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Mike H
 
According to the FBI test, the overpenetration of .223 vs 9mm is a myth rather than facts. The test report showed that .223 actually dissipates energy quickly after contact, while 9mm will penetrate a lot more material before stopping (about 3 times more, that' where 10" vs 29" comes in).

The disadvantages of .223 is that it will defeat body armor and is very loud.
 
Mike H,

I understand your concern...and I couldn't believe it myself until I did a little research.

The fragmentation in the case of the Hornady V-Max round is based on a little goofy polimer tip that they install on the front of the bullet. It slams its way back through the bullet upon impact. In doing so (since the bullet is whipping along at about 9 billion feet per second) the bullet just flies apart, disappating all of its energy into the target... and leaving a rather nasty wound in the process. Its a real lead bullet...not made out of cookie crumbs (I know of what you speak, and I agree that these are bogus). The V-max bullet is available in weights of 40, 55, 60 and 75 grain. Trajectory is the same, but terminal ballilstics are devastating.

As far as being able to throw the bullet that fast....the thing pretty much explodes on impact and fans out in a cone shaped area (which winds up about 6 inches wide. It is the best of both worlds; high energy with no over-penetration.

The incident with the mini-14 was probably an Full Metal Jacket...which is totally inappropriate for that type of setting.
 
The BluesMan,

There are a number of reasons for preferring a pistol in tight CQB over a shoulder arm. This is more relevant for the average civilian homeowner/ home defense situation. Let me suggest why you might consider such a prefence. First unless you train with your spouse/ significant other as a team, you are going to be the only one to respond to an intruder armed. Your are going to need to have both hands free to manipulate door knobs, call police/ sound alarm, carry frightened children to your designated defensive safe room, etc. You will find doing these tasks next to impossible to perform under stress with a two handed weapon. Secondly if you pull the trigger on an intruder you will be taken to the cleaners in civil court for not using the sights. Precise indexing of the target is called for in any shooting situation. How accurate under stress are you going to be by sighting along the barrel? What if you miss? The error in accurate sighting can be very significant depending on eye dominance and which side you are shouldering your weapon to sight along the barrel. This is also aggrivated with low light environments which can diminish depth perception and peripheral vision. What if there are more than one intruder?. As it is, you will experience tunnel vision due to stress. Thirdly, Shooting at a silhouette is a definite no-no. You must I.D. the intruder to verify the threat. Most states will put you away longer for employing deadly force on someone if they are not a threat. What if the silhouette is a family member on a midnight snack? What if you shoot and kill the neighborhood teen silhoutte who was merely running through your house stealing your television? No jury is going to view this as a justifiable homocide. The lesson here is to assess the threat and respond accordingly. Hint, mount lights on your house guns.
There is a time and and place for a long gun in the home. After you have secured yourself and family in the safe room and are better positioned behind cover or concealment then you are better served by a long arm with a bright light.
 
Whoa Whoa Whoa...

NEVER shoot at JUST a silhouette. You have to ID your Target.

If you dont ID your target - your going to be in a world of hurt when the cops show up...

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Not all Liberals are annoying... Some are Dead.
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
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