9mm FMJ verification please
- Thread starter SWolf
- Start date
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Both Hornady 9th and Speer #14 show a maximum load at 6.7. So it looks like your data is good. Speer's minimum charge is 6.2 grains. That's probably a good starting point. 6.0 is fine too; if you're more comfortable there.
Power Pistol is energetic stuff and isn't a very forgiving propellant. I generally don't recommend it for the beginner; but if that's what you have, then that's what you have. And you are using a light bullet, so that grants you some safety margin due to the fact that light bullets have a more mild pressure curve than heavies. Just make sure your powder charge weights are accurate.
I'm curious what the ammunition's purpose is? (general range shooting, steel competition, etc.)
And I'd also like to know the gun? (specifically, the barrel length)
Both Hornady 9th and Speer #14 show a maximum load at 6.7. So it looks like your data is good. Speer's minimum charge is 6.2 grains. That's probably a good starting point. 6.0 is fine too; if you're more comfortable there.
Power Pistol is energetic stuff and isn't a very forgiving propellant. I generally don't recommend it for the beginner; but if that's what you have, then that's what you have. And you are using a light bullet, so that grants you some safety margin due to the fact that light bullets have a more mild pressure curve than heavies. Just make sure your powder charge weights are accurate.
I'm curious what the ammunition's purpose is? (general range shooting, steel competition, etc.)
And I'd also like to know the gun? (specifically, the barrel length)
CAUTION!
I'm surprised the guys didn't catch this.
First, because of it's longer shape, the RN FMJ should not be seated to the same COL as the stubbier Gold Dot HP, so you do not want to use the same COL. Speer and Alliant show the 115 grain GDHP seated to 1.125", and the Speer RN FMJ to 1.135". Sierra seats their 115 grain RN FMJ 0.050" longer than their 115 grain JHP. Seating it as short as the GDHP will put the base of the RN FMJ deeper that the base of the GDHP would be.
What you want is for the bases to be at the same seating depth. So we need to know the difference in length between your RN FMJ and the GDHP. That's how much longer you will want to seat the RN FMJ than the GDHP data. Unfortunately, there are a number of different RN profiles from elliptical to spherical, and the former are longer than the latter.
I tried to call Speer for you to get the Gold Dot's length so we can figure that out, but they were busy and are calling me back, and I don't have any to measure. In the mean time, please post the make and length of your FMJ's, and then we'll have what we need as soon as they call me back.
I'm surprised the guys didn't catch this.
First, because of it's longer shape, the RN FMJ should not be seated to the same COL as the stubbier Gold Dot HP, so you do not want to use the same COL. Speer and Alliant show the 115 grain GDHP seated to 1.125", and the Speer RN FMJ to 1.135". Sierra seats their 115 grain RN FMJ 0.050" longer than their 115 grain JHP. Seating it as short as the GDHP will put the base of the RN FMJ deeper that the base of the GDHP would be.
What you want is for the bases to be at the same seating depth. So we need to know the difference in length between your RN FMJ and the GDHP. That's how much longer you will want to seat the RN FMJ than the GDHP data. Unfortunately, there are a number of different RN profiles from elliptical to spherical, and the former are longer than the latter.
I tried to call Speer for you to get the Gold Dot's length so we can figure that out, but they were busy and are calling me back, and I don't have any to measure. In the mean time, please post the make and length of your FMJ's, and then we'll have what we need as soon as they call me back.
And just to double-check: this is an FMJ and not a plated bullet? And it is a round nose? I assumed that, but truncated cones are also FMJ. Your length seems pretty short for RN.
That Handloads didn't have the exact COL that Alliant lists is likely a typo. It's always good to doublecheck load data from a couple of sources if you can. Alliant's site had load data online.
That Handloads didn't have the exact COL that Alliant lists is likely a typo. It's always good to doublecheck load data from a couple of sources if you can. Alliant's site had load data online.
I kinda did; and kinda didn't.
I looked at Speer, Sierra, and Hornady's manuals. Hornady and Sierra was 1.100 for their RN's (which seemed short to me, but that's what it was). I also looked at Speer, but glanced too quickly to realize I saw the GDHP's OAL (1.125"), rather than the RN - and I figured the 1.125 was "close enough" to not warrant mentioning. Turns out, the RN is 1.135" and that is worth mentioning.
That was a miss on my part. Of course, the ol' plunk test would be in order here.
Speer Says Don't Do it.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
SWolf,
I just got off the phone after a long talk with Justin at Speer. He says the Gold Dot data is strictly for the Gold Dot. He's actually made the Gold Dots, personally, and he says they are not jacketed, but are heavy plated bullets. He says some of the heavier jacketed bullets can max out below the Gold Dot's starting load. He has no way to know who made your bullets, so there is, unfortunately no simple answer here.
In your shoes, given your bullet's length, I think I would try seating at 1.13" and start with 5.5 grains of Power Pistol. It may not even function the gun, but that will let you work up until it does cycle, while watching for pressure signs. But I'd rather clear a gun that didn't cycle than clean up pieces. Justine also warned against using magnum primers in the 9 mm. I'd not heard that this was a problem before, but he described a scenario he said they'd seen repeated several times in which what he calls "over ignition" by the magnum primer caused modest charges to get peaky and batter guns until they let go after a few hundred rounds. Not worth risking it.
Justine reiterated what Allan Jones said about different bullet designs. Basically, 60 years ago everyone made bullets about the same and load data for any two the same weight worked for them all at that weight. Then Nosler came along with the Partition and Barnes with the solids and pretty soon everybody had different jacket thicknesses and bullet hardness and different bearing surface lengths, etc, etc.
Justin said a fellow having a pressure problem complained to him that he'd selected charges by bullet weight for 50 years, and suddenly he has a problem and wanted to know what happened, and Justin said he had to tell the fellow that the what happened was the world had changed and he hadn't. Now you have to get load data from the bullet maker for each particular bullet to be sure of it. Otherwise you are in untested territory.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
SWolf,
I just got off the phone after a long talk with Justin at Speer. He says the Gold Dot data is strictly for the Gold Dot. He's actually made the Gold Dots, personally, and he says they are not jacketed, but are heavy plated bullets. He says some of the heavier jacketed bullets can max out below the Gold Dot's starting load. He has no way to know who made your bullets, so there is, unfortunately no simple answer here.
In your shoes, given your bullet's length, I think I would try seating at 1.13" and start with 5.5 grains of Power Pistol. It may not even function the gun, but that will let you work up until it does cycle, while watching for pressure signs. But I'd rather clear a gun that didn't cycle than clean up pieces. Justine also warned against using magnum primers in the 9 mm. I'd not heard that this was a problem before, but he described a scenario he said they'd seen repeated several times in which what he calls "over ignition" by the magnum primer caused modest charges to get peaky and batter guns until they let go after a few hundred rounds. Not worth risking it.
Justine reiterated what Allan Jones said about different bullet designs. Basically, 60 years ago everyone made bullets about the same and load data for any two the same weight worked for them all at that weight. Then Nosler came along with the Partition and Barnes with the solids and pretty soon everybody had different jacket thicknesses and bullet hardness and different bearing surface lengths, etc, etc.
Justin said a fellow having a pressure problem complained to him that he'd selected charges by bullet weight for 50 years, and suddenly he has a problem and wanted to know what happened, and Justin said he had to tell the fellow that the what happened was the world had changed and he hadn't. Now you have to get load data from the bullet maker for each particular bullet to be sure of it. Otherwise you are in untested territory.
It may be, but it's 0.012" longer compared to the QL database. But that may be within variances for that bullet. It also isn't far from the Montana Gold version except their base looks slightly concave, though that could change with tooling changes over time. The Sierra isn't much different, either.
COL: It depends on YOUR GUN as much as the bullet—and COL in a manual means nothing as far as your gun is concerned. Manuals usually have quite short COLs so pressures are higher than at the COLs that handloaders use.
Load a couple of inert dummy rounds at max COL and reduce until the dummy rounds feed and chamber in YOUR gun and you have the COL for THAT bullet.
Then, you start at the start load (I check several sources and start at the lowest start load). You don't have the same gun or component lot numbers (if even the same components), so your results will be different—=[[
so start low. As seen below, being a careful reloader, I would start at 5.0gn and work up. I know that my lot of Power Pistol and the 121-125gn bullets I have tested so far all work GREAT with 6.0gn of powder (so, 6.0gn of Power Pistol wouldn't worry me with my powder lot and 115gn bullets), but I'm not about to assume that the next bullet will be the same. I always work up loads with new bullets and back down a bit when I go to a new lot number of powder.
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Note P.F. COL
Hdy HP-XTP, FMJ 115 Power Pistol 4.8 1000 Start 115 1.075–1.100
Nos JHP 115 Power Pistol 5.6 1011 Start 116 1.100
J-all 115 Power Pistol 5.9 Start
FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.0 Start 0 1.120
Hdy FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.0 Bullseye 50 yd 0 1.120
Zero JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.0 Action Pistol
Nos JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.1 1107 Acc 127 1.100
Hdy FMJ/RN 115 Power Pistol 6.1 V. Acc 0 1.120
Hdy FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.1 Bullseye 50 yd 0 1.120
FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.2 1186 Start 136 1.120
Hdy FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Bullseye 50 yd 0 1.120
MG JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Acc. 0 1.104
FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Acc. 0 1.140
JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Acc. 0 1.100
GD-HP 115 Power Pistol 6.3 1125 Acc. 129
Sie JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.3 1170 Acc. 135
GD-HP 115 Power Pistol 6.3 1215 140
J-all 115 Power Pistol 6.3 Max
Sie FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.5 1219 Acc. 140 1.120
Nos JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1198 Max 138 1.100
GD-HP, TMJ, JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1212 Max 139 1.125
Hdy HP-XTP, FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1250 Max 144 1.075–1.100
FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1280 Max 147 1.120
Load a couple of inert dummy rounds at max COL and reduce until the dummy rounds feed and chamber in YOUR gun and you have the COL for THAT bullet.
Then, you start at the start load (I check several sources and start at the lowest start load). You don't have the same gun or component lot numbers (if even the same components), so your results will be different—=[[
so start low. As seen below, being a careful reloader, I would start at 5.0gn and work up. I know that my lot of Power Pistol and the 121-125gn bullets I have tested so far all work GREAT with 6.0gn of powder (so, 6.0gn of Power Pistol wouldn't worry me with my powder lot and 115gn bullets), but I'm not about to assume that the next bullet will be the same. I always work up loads with new bullets and back down a bit when I go to a new lot number of powder.
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Note P.F. COL
Hdy HP-XTP, FMJ 115 Power Pistol 4.8 1000 Start 115 1.075–1.100
Nos JHP 115 Power Pistol 5.6 1011 Start 116 1.100
J-all 115 Power Pistol 5.9 Start
FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.0 Start 0 1.120
Hdy FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.0 Bullseye 50 yd 0 1.120
Zero JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.0 Action Pistol
Nos JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.1 1107 Acc 127 1.100
Hdy FMJ/RN 115 Power Pistol 6.1 V. Acc 0 1.120
Hdy FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.1 Bullseye 50 yd 0 1.120
FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.2 1186 Start 136 1.120
Hdy FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Bullseye 50 yd 0 1.120
MG JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Acc. 0 1.104
FMJ-RN 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Acc. 0 1.140
JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.2 Acc. 0 1.100
GD-HP 115 Power Pistol 6.3 1125 Acc. 129
Sie JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.3 1170 Acc. 135
GD-HP 115 Power Pistol 6.3 1215 140
J-all 115 Power Pistol 6.3 Max
Sie FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.5 1219 Acc. 140 1.120
Nos JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1198 Max 138 1.100
GD-HP, TMJ, JHP 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1212 Max 139 1.125
Hdy HP-XTP, FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1250 Max 144 1.075–1.100
FMJ 115 Power Pistol 6.7 1280 Max 147 1.120