9mm cartridge differences

F

FlySubCompact

New member
I'm fairly new to shooting service caliber pistols....and I have a question.

When I first started shooting 9mm I saw cartridges labeled: "9mm NATO", "9x19" and "9mm Luger". I was told by the sporting goods guy that 9mm Luger and 9x19 are the same exact cartridge. Is 9mm NATO the same thing as the others?

If they all can be shot in my 9mm Glock, why the different names? Thanks.
 
NATO uses slightly different specifications and requires a minimum velocity for its pistol ammo. The end result is slightly hotter than standard commercial ammo. It is loaded with a 124gr FMJ bullet and has the primers crimped in place to prevent them from shaking loose during FA fire in a submachine gun. Lastly, it has a special headstamp with a code designating the manufacturer, and the cross in a circle NATO symbol.
 
9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19, and 9mm NATO are all dimensionally identical. As has been mentioned, however, 9mm NATO is loaded to somewhat different specifications and is often higher pressure than standard 9x19/Luger/Parabellum.
 
If they all can be shot in my 9mm Glock, why the different names?
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9mm Luger because first available in the Luger pistol.
9mm Parabellum because that was the telegraph address of DWM, maker of Lugers and ammunition. Also because Stoeger holds the trademark on "Luger" and some companies don't want to use it.
9x19 because the case is 19mm long and that is the European generic cartridge ID format.
9mm NATO because it is in one particular loading, the standard pistol and SMG cartridge for that organization.
 
Re: the names

BTW the correct name for the cartridge is the 9mm Parabellum. The origin of the other names requires a brief history lesson. :)

The cartridge was originally developed by the German gun and ammo manufacturer DWM for its Pistole Parabellum, which had been designed by their engineer Georg Luger as an improvement of the earlier Borschardt pistol. "Para bellum" means "for war" and is derived from the ancient Roman saying "Si vis pacem, para bellum", which is usually translated as "If you want peace, prepare for war". By late 19th century standards, the Parabellum was a relatively large and powerful handgun, so DWM primarily marketed it as a military sidearm with commercial sales as an afterthought. Therefore, the name Parabellum was thought to be very appropriate.

Despite the pistol's official name, the Luger name remained commonly associated with the design. When A.F. Stoeger became DWM's official U.S. distributor following WWI, they wisely perceived that American buyers might have trouble with the name Parabellum, so they marketed the pistol as the "Luger". Since this was basically the only gun available in America prior to the end of WWII that fired the 9mm cartridge, it was logical to call the round "9mm Luger" to prevent confusion. Although the Luger pistol was very expensive and never sold particularly well in the USA, the name stuck. (Most Luger pistols in America today are either German WWII G.I. bringbacks or European military and police surplus brought in by postwar importers; the original Stoeger imports are actually quite rare and sought after.)

The other names such as 9x19mm are usually intended to prevent confusion with other 9mm rounds, most commonly .380ACP, which is known as the 9mm Browning Short or 9x17mm in Europe. "Short" is commonly translated into the local language of the ammo or pistol manufacturer, most commonly "Kurz" in German or "Corto" in Italian or Spanish; e.g. Italian-made Fiocchi ammo is headstamped "9mmBr.C." for "9mm Browning Corto". Other less common but still prevalent European 9mm rounds are the 9x20mm Browning Long and 9x23mm Largo.

[EDIT: I notice that Jim Watson beat me to some of this. :)]
 
Don't some 9mm rounds also have harder primers for open bolt subguns?
Years ago, there were lots of middle eastern 9mm surplus military ammo available.
And it had very hard primers that often didn't fire in handguns.
If memory serves, they had 124 grain bullets that chronoed 1250 f/s or so out of a 5" barrel.
Was that also NATO?
 
TMD wrote: Actually it's less pressure than standard 9mm ammo.
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I owe you an apology. I didn’t believe that, so I looked it up. Sure enough, you are correct. Here’s what I found.

9mm NATO maximum pressure 34,084 psi
9x19 maximum pressure 35,001 psi
9mm +P maximum pressure 38,500
 
Thanks guys for the info (and history lessons :) ) Interesting.

Let me ask some more...... I have a Glock 23 with a LW 40-9 conversion barrel. I have ran everything through it except the "+p" and "NATO" labeled stuff with no malfunctions. Is it safe to shoot these others, too in my rig?
 
I have ran everything through it except the "+p" and "NATO" labeled stuff with no malfunctions. Is it safe to shoot these others, too in my rig?
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In a Glock, even with an aftermarket barrel, you should have no problem with NATO or +P spec ammo. Be aware, however, that extensive use of either will cause somewhat accelerated wear on any pistol.
 
Don't some 9mm rounds also have harder primers for open bolt subguns? ...[some Middle Eastern surplus] had 124 grain bullets that chronoed 1250 f/s or so out of a 5" barrel... Was that also NATO?
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No, this was not NATO. Some military forces have historically used special extra-high-pressure 9mm ammo for their submachine guns. Some of this ammo is too hot for repeated use in pretty much ANY 9x19mm pistol; it should be avoided.

According to warnings gleaned from past forum threads, you should be very wary of surplus 9mm ammo:
  • With packaging or headstamps bearing the designation "L7A1" or "L18A1"
  • That comes in a package labeled "FOR SUBMACHINE GUNS" or "FOR UZI"
  • Made by Hirtenberger
"Luger" is also easier to fit on ammo headstamps than "Parabellum".
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Not if it's abbreviated as "PARA." :p
 
Am I correct in assuming the NATO round is ball only?

The real key to finding a self-defense round, for me, is loading my Kahr PM9 with brand-name hollowpoints ... Ball ammo will of course stop a fight, but the latest JHPs make a bigger hole if they upset and will probably stop the fight sooner ...
 
"9mm Luger" is the name U.S. makers, and later SAAMI, adopted for the round in the U.S. It is not commonly used elsewhere.

Jim Watson is correct on the name "Parabellum"; it began as the DWM cable address ("Parabellum - Berlin") and later was used by DWM as a trade name applied to DWM products, notably the famous pistol and the Parabellum Machinegun (used as a flexible aircraft gun by Germany in WWI). The Luger pistol itself is called that mainly in the U.S.; elsewhere it is commonly called the Parabellum pistol.

Jim
 
Just to add fuel to the fire, the 'Luger Pistole Parabellum' was not designed for the 9x19 round initially...

It was adapted for 9x19 from the original chambering of 7.65x21 (aka .30 Luger)...

:D
 
The real key to finding a self-defense round, for me, is loading my Kahr PM9 with brand-name hollowpoints ... Ball ammo will of course stop a fight, but the latest JHPs make a bigger hole if they upset and will probably stop the fight sooner ...
Click to expand...

While its off topic the topic has been answered so will address this.

Ball is intended to penetrate as well as feed reliably. Enough holes and it will stop a fight, but its not the best for HD or SD as pistols are not one shot stoppers in any caliber.

The SD/HD hollow points DO NOT upset. Thats a 5.56 round characteristic (3000 fps area) that has to do with the bullet length and velocity).

You do not want upset in a pistol round as you loose penetration.

Hollow point HD/SD (JHP) do expand created a bigger wound passage than a ball or FMJ round.

In addition, the science is such that they can get penetration and the expansion both working correctly with the modern JHPs. That means the round goes through an arm and a good part of the body and does as much damage as possible for the size of the cartridge.

If you have an older semi auto, it may not feed reliably with the JHP and you need to use FMJ in it (I have a PPK that only works with FMJ)

The science of the hollow point SD ammo has caught up with caliber sizes such that a 9mm in real world shooting data is as lethal as a 45 with SD ammo. Ergo, sans other reasons, 9x19 mm (whatever else its called) is an excellent choice.
 
Just to add fuel to the fire, the 'Luger Pistole Parabellum' was not designed for the 9x19 round initially...

It was adapted for 9x19 from the original chambering of 7.65x21 (aka .30 Luger)...
Click to expand...

Quite so. Luger pistols were sold world wide, and to a number of nations in .30 caliber. It was the original chambering of the piece. But the German army refused to buy them! They felt that the .30 cal bullet was too small to be a reliable stopper. Luger looked at his bottlenecked case, and figured out the largest bullet he could fit in it (without going to another case design, and major rework of the gun) would be .35 cal.

And, wonder of wonders, the German Army agreed it was good enough, and bought them, adopting them in 1908. And the Luger pistol (in German service) has been known as the P.08 ever since. Interestingly the German Navy adopted the pistol and its 9mm cartridge in 1904. The earliest models of 9mm Luger produced (that I can find) is the 1902 model (in a couple of variations)

US ammo makers called the round the 9mm Luger. Europeans came to know it as the 9mm Parabellum. And its generic European identity as the 9x19mm.

9mm NATO refers to a specific loading, adopted as the NATO standard issue ammo.
 
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