If say I had decided on a particular brand of 9mm ammo, Speer Gold Dot for example, and I had decided on a particular bullet weight, 124 grain for example, and I wanted it to be my primary carry ammo for my Kahrs and my Browning Hi Power, would you guys suggest standard or +P?
9mm ammo...narrowing it down a bit...
- Thread starter Sundance
- Start date
jack_the_sailor
New member
Standard. Heres what Firearms tatical said about Speer GD 124 +P. Don't use it in pistols with a barrel lenght of 4 inches or longer because it over expands, under penetrates, & doesn't reach vital organs. Firearms tactical said in 9mm with a barrel lenght of 4 inches or longer use standard pressure 124 or 147. GD 124 +P are fine for barrel lenghts under 4 inches.
yankytrash
New member
If I took a 30d nail and jammed it in my gut, do you think it'd matter if I jammed it in there fast, versus really fast?
Save your pistols' life expectancies, go standard.
Save your pistols' life expectancies, go standard.
yanky trash,
Your analogy is not relative.
If the velocity of the projectile results in a difference in expansion or penetration, then yes it would make a significant difference.
I thank you for your input, but I am not sure I agree with your reasoning behind it.
I am still completely up in the air on this subject.
Your analogy is not relative.
If the velocity of the projectile results in a difference in expansion or penetration, then yes it would make a significant difference.
I thank you for your input, but I am not sure I agree with your reasoning behind it.
I am still completely up in the air on this subject.
I voted standard. I read somewhere, an Ayoob article where he said that "most" BG's shot w/ 9mm experienced 'pass throughs' when they were shot. I carry standard in all my guns. There is less abuse put upon the gun when practicing. You do practice with carry ammo , right? I have also read that +P loads are for under 4" barrels. There just isn't sufficient time to generate the pressure needed to accelerate the bullet to acceptable velocity otherwise.
yankytrash
New member
Sundance,
We're talking about a little 9mm bullet here, so the analogy holds true.
The 9mm has no stopping power. That's been proven time and time again, and I believe that even the 9mm advocates will agree. So we're talking 9mm choices in either two ways:
Quantity versus quality, where more bullet capacity will stop'm, or
Quality versus quantity, where shot placement is key.
In the latter case, bulk-packed Remington 22lr will do the same job. So I assume we have to talk about the former - quantity. In quantity, it won't matter if you have silver filled hollow points cased in lead, because the expanded 9mm/380 family doesn't have enough metal in it to fill a teaspoon (Ever seen an expanded .45? Looks like a silver dollar. Expanded 9mm, if under the most ideal circumstances, might expand to the size of a quarter.). You're trying to fill your target with lead to effectively stop it.
Relying on shot placement would be a nice luxury, but you can't always count on being able to do it. That's why body mass is preached for high-stress situations.
Thus the 30d nail analogy. I once had a 30d nail go through my thigh. Didn't stop me at all.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.
We're talking about a little 9mm bullet here, so the analogy holds true.
The 9mm has no stopping power. That's been proven time and time again, and I believe that even the 9mm advocates will agree. So we're talking 9mm choices in either two ways:
Quantity versus quality, where more bullet capacity will stop'm, or
Quality versus quantity, where shot placement is key.
In the latter case, bulk-packed Remington 22lr will do the same job. So I assume we have to talk about the former - quantity. In quantity, it won't matter if you have silver filled hollow points cased in lead, because the expanded 9mm/380 family doesn't have enough metal in it to fill a teaspoon (Ever seen an expanded .45? Looks like a silver dollar. Expanded 9mm, if under the most ideal circumstances, might expand to the size of a quarter.). You're trying to fill your target with lead to effectively stop it.
Relying on shot placement would be a nice luxury, but you can't always count on being able to do it. That's why body mass is preached for high-stress situations.
Thus the 30d nail analogy. I once had a 30d nail go through my thigh. Didn't stop me at all.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.
I thoroughly test my guns with my carry ammo. I think a 400 round carry ammo test is a little absurd, and a little out of my budget. But I thoroughly test it with 50 to 100 rounds of my carry ammo. I then shoot 25 to 50 rounds of my carry ammo through my guns at least once a year. The rest of the time I practice with inexpensive fmj ammo.
IF VELOCITY DOESN'T MATTER WHY IS THERE A 300 KONG?
Or a 454 Casull, or a 9x21 / 9x23 / 9x25? Or a 357 or 44 Magnum?
I don't really care what Firearms Tactical says.
I say a 115g JHP at 1330fps + is a sufficient defense load (if we are looking for L.E. use I have a different thought).
I do NOT suggest the Gold Dot is the best example in .355", but it ain't bad.
My my, don't I have an opinion.............
(Your results may vary, I'm not always right, blah blah blah, Oh, and screw SAAMI.)
Or a 454 Casull, or a 9x21 / 9x23 / 9x25? Or a 357 or 44 Magnum?
I don't really care what Firearms Tactical says.
I say a 115g JHP at 1330fps + is a sufficient defense load (if we are looking for L.E. use I have a different thought).
I do NOT suggest the Gold Dot is the best example in .355", but it ain't bad.
My my, don't I have an opinion.............
(Your results may vary, I'm not always right, blah blah blah, Oh, and screw SAAMI.)
I kinda like that analogy.
Gut, probably not. One in the gut vs one in the heart maybe,,,
placement, placement, reliability, reliability,,everything else. <--My 5 basics of stopping power.
The way I see it is beating up a gun with high pressure loads is counterproductive to my own 5 basics.
The 9mm needs +P velocities to be effective. I don't understand why American shooters don't understand this. Hell, the NATO round is at least a +P+, which makes the behavior of the nine totally different. (Yes, I know it is ball). I think the 9 emulating the 125g .357 mag JHP is the way to go.
justinr1
justinr1
Stephen A. Camp
Staff In Memoriam
Hello. The Speer 124 gr +P GDHP averages 1199 ft/sec from my Browning HP and about 1240 ft/sec from a CZ75. It's expanded well in animals I've shot with it and during my time as an officer, I saw one felon "stopped" with one shot to the chest.
Best.
Best.
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
IIRC, the 124gr Gold Dot bullet has a design velocity of 1150 fps, and when propelled at this velocity it seems to exhibit reliable expansion performance, combined with adequate penetration. Hence I believe the 124gr +P Gold Dot is a good choice for compact handguns, and the 124gr (standard pressure) Gold Dot cartridge is a good choice for full size handguns.
Velocity above 1150 fps can cause overexpansion, and the bullet takes the shape of a starfish with the six petals looking like long fingers or ribbons extending from the core, which substantially affects sectional density and penetration.
The 124gr +P Gold Dot cartridge usually propels the bullet close to design velocity when fired from compact handguns. The 124gr (standard pressure) cartridge usually propels the bullet close to design velocity when fired from full size handguns.
Photos of 124gr Gold Dot bullets are at http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea01.htm and http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea02.htm
How important is adequate penetration? To determine for yourself, stand in front of a mirror and assume a weaver style handgun shooting stance using your reflection as your target. Then observe your relection to observe how much your arms shield your torso. (A long gun shooting stance produces a similar penetration problem.) Therefore there is a good chance that your bullet must first pass through 4-5 inches of an attacker's arm before it penetrates the torso. Chances are good that the bullet will expand in the soft tissues of the arm, or otherwise deform by hitting bone, and this will affect penetration of the torso. When the expanded/deformed bullet exits the arm and hits the torso, the bullet's decreased sectional density will decrease its ability to enter and penetrate the torso. This can result in a loss of up to 30 percent of a bullet's total penetration potential. Therefore a bullet that normally penetrates 12 inches may now penetrate only 9 inches. Subtract 4-5 inches for having to pass through an arm, and the reminder of the bullet's penetration potential, 4-5 inches, is barely adequate to reach vitals.
Velocity above 1150 fps can cause overexpansion, and the bullet takes the shape of a starfish with the six petals looking like long fingers or ribbons extending from the core, which substantially affects sectional density and penetration.
The 124gr +P Gold Dot cartridge usually propels the bullet close to design velocity when fired from compact handguns. The 124gr (standard pressure) cartridge usually propels the bullet close to design velocity when fired from full size handguns.
Photos of 124gr Gold Dot bullets are at http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea01.htm and http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea02.htm
How important is adequate penetration? To determine for yourself, stand in front of a mirror and assume a weaver style handgun shooting stance using your reflection as your target. Then observe your relection to observe how much your arms shield your torso. (A long gun shooting stance produces a similar penetration problem.) Therefore there is a good chance that your bullet must first pass through 4-5 inches of an attacker's arm before it penetrates the torso. Chances are good that the bullet will expand in the soft tissues of the arm, or otherwise deform by hitting bone, and this will affect penetration of the torso. When the expanded/deformed bullet exits the arm and hits the torso, the bullet's decreased sectional density will decrease its ability to enter and penetrate the torso. This can result in a loss of up to 30 percent of a bullet's total penetration potential. Therefore a bullet that normally penetrates 12 inches may now penetrate only 9 inches. Subtract 4-5 inches for having to pass through an arm, and the reminder of the bullet's penetration potential, 4-5 inches, is barely adequate to reach vitals.