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8x57 norm ?
- Thread starter Knuck39
- Start date
As with all old firearms of unknown lineage- have a gunsmith make a chamber cast to find out exactly what it's s'posed to digest. Back then, 8x57JRS, 8x57JR, and 8x57S (I think) were common chamberings that were way different from each other. One was a rimmed ctg for use in Drillings, the other a common military .32 diameter rimless ctg, and the other was a .318 diameter rimless ctg. All three were likely still common in the 1930's German/European sporting scene.
There's too many unsafe variables to gamble on really.
There's too many unsafe variables to gamble on really.
tahunua001
New member
apparently(and this is just going off of what I could glean from google) in the early 1900s remington released a round called 8mm norm. it was an intermediary round that was supposed to work in both 8 mannlicher(8x56mm) and 8 mauser(8x57) rifles. whether this is true or not I don't know, I only found a single forum where a single member made such claims. all I know is if such a round ever existed then it would sure be nice to find some again so I could finally add a M95 to my collection without worrying about not finding ammo for it.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Norma wasn't a player in the commercial ammunition markets until after World War II. Prior to that they concentrated almost exclusively on Sweden and Scandanavia, and primarily on military ammunition.
I had never heard of US ammo companies making one cartridge that would fit both the Mannlicher and the Mauser rifles.
But, in the discussion that tahunua mentions (located here: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums...94&PHPSESSID=190ee6e1f378c4d89ea4bcd63d956449) on the second page is a picture of a VERY interesting box of winchester ammunition, stating that it is for both 8x56 and 8x57.
No indication of how old that box of Winchester ammo is, but it looks to be pretty old.
But, before WW II, Western was loading 8x56 specific ammunition, and I would assume, 8x57 specific ammunition.
I can't find a dimensioned drawing for the 8x56 M-S, but the only way I could think of such a cartridge working is if both the 8x56 and the 8x57 have the shoulder in the same place to allow for proper headspacing.
I had never heard of US ammo companies making one cartridge that would fit both the Mannlicher and the Mauser rifles.
But, in the discussion that tahunua mentions (located here: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums...94&PHPSESSID=190ee6e1f378c4d89ea4bcd63d956449) on the second page is a picture of a VERY interesting box of winchester ammunition, stating that it is for both 8x56 and 8x57.
No indication of how old that box of Winchester ammo is, but it looks to be pretty old.
But, before WW II, Western was loading 8x56 specific ammunition, and I would assume, 8x57 specific ammunition.
I can't find a dimensioned drawing for the 8x56 M-S, but the only way I could think of such a cartridge working is if both the 8x56 and the 8x57 have the shoulder in the same place to allow for proper headspacing.
mapsjanhere
New member
As the 8x56 is a rimmed cartridge the corresponding 8x57 has to be the rimmed version, so headspacing is no issue. The different bullet diameter should be, 329 to 323.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"As the 8x56 is a rimmed cartridge the corresponding 8x57 has to be the rimmed version, so headspacing is no issue. The different bullet diameter should be, 329 to 323."
We're talking about different cartridges.
The 8x56R was a rimmed cartridge for the M95 Steyr military rifles used by Austria.
That round has, to the best of my knowledge, never been loaded commercially in the United States (until very recently by Hornady) and it has never been used as a sporting round in bolt-action rifles.
That round is also NOWHERE near interchangeable with the 8x57R Mauser round.
The 8x56R round has a base diameter of .494; the 8x57R Mauser round has a base diameter of .473, the same as the rimless version.
The round that's being referenced here is, I believe, the rimless 8x56 Mannlicher cartridge which was one of the three common sporting chamberings for Mannlicher rifles, the others being 6.5 and 9mm.
The rimless Mannlicher sporting cartridges (there were several others as well as the ones I mentioned in the previous paragraph), all used cases with base diameters of .473, or the same as the 8x57 Mauser cartridge.
The 8x56 sporting cartridge was manufactured here in the US by Western, Remington, and I believe Peters through at least the 1920s.
We're talking about different cartridges.
The 8x56R was a rimmed cartridge for the M95 Steyr military rifles used by Austria.
That round has, to the best of my knowledge, never been loaded commercially in the United States (until very recently by Hornady) and it has never been used as a sporting round in bolt-action rifles.
That round is also NOWHERE near interchangeable with the 8x57R Mauser round.
The 8x56R round has a base diameter of .494; the 8x57R Mauser round has a base diameter of .473, the same as the rimless version.
The round that's being referenced here is, I believe, the rimless 8x56 Mannlicher cartridge which was one of the three common sporting chamberings for Mannlicher rifles, the others being 6.5 and 9mm.
The rimless Mannlicher sporting cartridges (there were several others as well as the ones I mentioned in the previous paragraph), all used cases with base diameters of .473, or the same as the 8x57 Mauser cartridge.
The 8x56 sporting cartridge was manufactured here in the US by Western, Remington, and I believe Peters through at least the 1920s.
Jim Watson
New member
Probably stands for "Normalisiert" meaning normalized or brought into agreement with standard specifications.
But what does it mean on a rifle barrel?
My first choice is that it an 8x57JS, same as an infantry rifle of the period.
It might mean the OLD standard 8x57J because some gunsmiths had the theory that the smaller barrel was more accurate.
I doubt it is an 8x60, that was a loophole chambering post WW I when Germany was strictly limited on building 8x57s and by the 1930s they didn't care about the Versailles Treaty any more.
I strongly doubt it is an 8x56 Mannlicher or an 8x57R or an 8x56R Hungarian in a Mauser action.
But a chamber cast and bore slug will tell the tale.
There are probably proof marks on the rifle that might give an indication but they are so cryptic as to not be a lot of use in many cases.
Just curious, how do you chance to have a "sporting Mauser from the 1930s" and not know what caliber it is? Grandpa confiscate it from some poor German hunter in the Occupation?
But what does it mean on a rifle barrel?
My first choice is that it an 8x57JS, same as an infantry rifle of the period.
It might mean the OLD standard 8x57J because some gunsmiths had the theory that the smaller barrel was more accurate.
I doubt it is an 8x60, that was a loophole chambering post WW I when Germany was strictly limited on building 8x57s and by the 1930s they didn't care about the Versailles Treaty any more.
I strongly doubt it is an 8x56 Mannlicher or an 8x57R or an 8x56R Hungarian in a Mauser action.
But a chamber cast and bore slug will tell the tale.
There are probably proof marks on the rifle that might give an indication but they are so cryptic as to not be a lot of use in many cases.
Just curious, how do you chance to have a "sporting Mauser from the 1930s" and not know what caliber it is? Grandpa confiscate it from some poor German hunter in the Occupation?
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I strongly doubt it is an 8x56 Mannlicher or an 8x57R or an 8x56R Hungarian in a Mauser action."
I would have said the same thing regarding the 8x56/8x57, but then I found the picture I referred to in my first post.
I would have said the same thing regarding the 8x56/8x57, but then I found the picture I referred to in my first post.
Jim Watson
New member
The ammunition box I see in that thread is labeled 9mm Mauser or Mannlicher.
The 1939 Stoegers has an interesting entry on the subject.
The ammunition section shows a cartridge labeled "Remington 8mm Mauser & Mannlicher" But the fine print says: "For Model 88 and 98 Mauser, also for Haenel-Mannlicher. For Mauser, Sauer-Mauser and Schilling-Mauser; Haenel, Mannlicher, Model 1888 Military and Sporting Rifles. Not for Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles." (Emphasis added.)
There is a separate catalog entry for Western brand 8mm Mannlicher, listed "For 8mm Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles only."
And part of a dissertation on the 8mm family: "THE MANNLICHER SCHOENAUER 8MM (8.2X56MM) MODEL 1908 TAKES A SPECIAL SHELL WHICH IS POSITIVELY NOT INTERCHANGEABLE WITH THE MAUSER 8MM, INASMUCH AS THE MAUSER CASE IS 1MM LONGER AND THE NECK IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY PLACED. Cartridges are made which are supposed to be interchangeable - and sometimes are interchangeable - but their use is dangerous due to incorrect chambering and faulty headspacing."
(All caps in original.)
The 1939 Stoegers has an interesting entry on the subject.
The ammunition section shows a cartridge labeled "Remington 8mm Mauser & Mannlicher" But the fine print says: "For Model 88 and 98 Mauser, also for Haenel-Mannlicher. For Mauser, Sauer-Mauser and Schilling-Mauser; Haenel, Mannlicher, Model 1888 Military and Sporting Rifles. Not for Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles." (Emphasis added.)
There is a separate catalog entry for Western brand 8mm Mannlicher, listed "For 8mm Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles only."
And part of a dissertation on the 8mm family: "THE MANNLICHER SCHOENAUER 8MM (8.2X56MM) MODEL 1908 TAKES A SPECIAL SHELL WHICH IS POSITIVELY NOT INTERCHANGEABLE WITH THE MAUSER 8MM, INASMUCH AS THE MAUSER CASE IS 1MM LONGER AND THE NECK IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY PLACED. Cartridges are made which are supposed to be interchangeable - and sometimes are interchangeable - but their use is dangerous due to incorrect chambering and faulty headspacing."
(All caps in original.)
mapsjanhere
New member
tahunua001
New member
lots of good information here, I had no idea there were that many variations of 8mm ammo.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jim, nice find on that information. I could not find a diagram of the 8x56 cartridge and was only speculating on the case configuration based on that Winchester box. It is as you note 9mm, which led me to speculate that if those cartridges were similar enough to be interchangeable, the 8mm might also be. Obviously not.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Ah. I see my error in my first post. I meant to refer to the winchester box as 9mm, not 8mm.
My bad.
But, doing a quick scan of the Cartridges of the World, the Mannlicher looks as if it has smaller dimensions.
Comparing two cartridge drawings, I don't see how Winchester could have arrived at a passable cartridge that would work in both guns. The shoulders are in different places, meaning that headspace would be completely jacked.
My bad.
But, doing a quick scan of the Cartridges of the World, the Mannlicher looks as if it has smaller dimensions.
Comparing two cartridge drawings, I don't see how Winchester could have arrived at a passable cartridge that would work in both guns. The shoulders are in different places, meaning that headspace would be completely jacked.
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FrankenMauser
New member
Don't make any assumptions about what it is.
At the very least, slug the bore.
To be safe, have a gunsmith take a chamber cast.
At the very least, slug the bore.
To be safe, have a gunsmith take a chamber cast.
mapsjanhere
New member
Take the barrel out of the stock. It should be stamped underneath with a set of proof marks. These should tell you the date and the land diameter. If it's marked with 7.9 and a post-1930 mark you can assume it's 8x57 IS. If it's earlier and 7.8, have it slugged to check for 8x57I (very rare post WWI, but possible in the 1920's).