8x57 "J" vs "JS" - measure the throat or the bore?

Cossack

New member
I've recently purchased a pre-war commercial sporting 98 Mauser by J. P. Sauer, chambered in 8x57mm. I have not slugged the bore yet to see if the grooves measure .323" or .318", but I have a question about the practical interchangeability of the two bullet sizes.

Based on the quoted post below, by JamesK in 2005, it would seem that rather than the diameter of the bore, the size of the chamber is the most important factor in firing "JS" ammo in a rifle. Do I understand this correctly?

So, even if I slug the bore at .318, might it be safe to shoot moderately loaded 8x57JS in the rifle, assuming that the throat is big enough for the case neck to expand? If so, how big is "big enough" for the throat?

As for the "bore diameter" of Mausers, the bore was the same, .311" in our measurements. What was changed in 1905 was the groove diameter and the bullet diameter, from .318" to .323". Deepening the grooves allowed a barrel to last longer.

When the Germans converted Model 1888 commission rifles to fire the "S" bullets and marked an "S" on the receiver, they did not rebarrel or rebore. All they did was expand the chamber throat to allow case neck expansion; the barrels are still .318" groove, .311" bore. (They also closed off the bottom hole in the magazine and fitted clip guides.) I have fired WWII German GI AP and ball in them with no problems, but for obvious reasons will not recommend it. As far as I can determine no small bullet ammunition or M1888 en bloc clips were issued in the German service in WWI or WWII; the standard 7.9 (.323" bullet) was issued for all use, in the standard "stripper" clips.
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The 8x57mm Mauser itself has several names. In the civilian world, it is called the 8x57JS (J=Infantry, S=large bullet). In the German WWII military it was called the 7.9. There was a rimmed version for drillings, called the 8x57JRS (R=rimmed). The older rounds with the .318" bullet were called the 8x57J and its rimmed equivalent, the 8x57JR.

Jim
 
What an army would do to get some use out of obsolete rifles for issue to line of communication and service troops who would not be doing much shooting is not necessarily what I would do with a nice sporting rifle.

Even a lot of "J bore" 8mms were larger in the grooves than .318", one European school of thought was that there needed to be someplace for bullet metal displaced by the lands to go. The other European school of thought was that a barrel should be "tight" for best accuracy.
We Americans think the bullet diameter and groove diameter should match.
 
This is the purported reason that domestic 8x57 ammo is loaded to such a conservative level. If the .323 ammo gets fired in an old .318 bore(attached to a weak action), the rifle isn't as likely to sympathetically dis-assemble itself.
 
The info is correct as it applies to Model 1888 rifles converted to use the new 8x57JS (or IS) cartridge. But after c. 1905, the German military was not making rifles in the old size and firing new ammo in them. Most sporting rifle makers went with the new military round (8x57JS is the civilian designation), just as U.S. makers stopped making .30-'03 and shifted to .30-'06.

German sportsmen were often conservative, so the old size didn't disappear immediately, but if your rifle was produced after WWI, I think it likely that it is in the larger groove diameter, but only slugging the bore will provide a sure answer. You might also check the proof marks. You should see something like:

St.m 12.7g or St.m 14.7g

The former shows proof with a 196 grain bullet (the new S type); the latter shows the old 226 grain round nose bullet.

Jim
 
Actually, the S cartridge was 9.9 g (152 gr), the 12.7 g (196 gr) is the s.S. bullet of WW II vintage. As the Germans stopped marking the proof load on the gun before WWI you shouldn't find any marked for the sS round.
 
I've recently purchased a pre-war commercial sporting 98 Mauser by J. P. Sauer, chambered in 8x57mm. I have not slugged the bore yet to see if the grooves measure .323" or .318", but I have a question about the practical interchangeability of the two bullet sizes.


I purchased the book GERMAN MILITARY RIFLES from the Werder Rifle to the M/71.84 Rifle by Dr. Dieter Storz
http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/Templates/book pages/storz_GMR_werder.html

Dr Storz has a long section on the 0.318" diameter bullets and the M1888. Based on my recollections no military M98 rifles were ever in 0.318" and I really doubt that any commercial M98 rifles ever where. What the Germans first did was to ream out the chambers of M1888 rifles and marked (most of them!) to indicate an enlarged chamber throat and freebore. This cheap fix resulted in blown barrels. This was a combination of the poor metallurgy of the day and increased pressures when .323" bullets went down the 0.318" tube. What the Germans eventually had to do was to rebarrel M1888 rifles with the larger diameter barrel.

Based on this, I would be surprised if any quality M98 rifle had the smaller bore. I just don't see an advantage and if the rifle was marked for the larger cartridge, it would never had passed proof if it had the smaller barrel. American's are very ignorant of European proof, most in fact assuming that Proof Loads are designed to destroy the rifle! (They got mis impression from reading from "Hatcher's Notebook" ) I don't have the checklist or details of European Proof houses, but based on what I have read, they gage stuff. They ensure that the firearm was 100% functional, properly marked and properly dimensioned before proof testing. If the firearm failed proof, at least before 1968, the whole firearm was destroyed!

Anyway if you are really concerned, drive a soft lead plug through your barrel and measure the diameter.
 
"Based on this, I would be surprised if any quality M98 rifle had the smaller bore."

Assuming that military rifles are considered "quality", that is certainly not true. When the Gewehr 98 was adopted in 1898, the "S" (.323") bullet did not exist and one of the advantages seen for retaining the 8mm was the vast quantity of ammunition available. So for the first, roughly, 5 years of Model 98 production, the barrels were made for the old cartridge.

I have never seen anything absolutely definitive as to whether those 98's were re-barreled or simply re-chambered as the 1888's were; Olson says they were re-chambered and the barrel marked with an "S" over the chamber, but at least one other source says the 98's were re-barreled. I think re-barreling would make more sense; unlike the 88's, the barrels were in production and readily available, although the cost would obviously be greater.

I do not recall seeing any early 98's with an "S" mark, but then rifles from those years are scarce.

As for civilian production, the 8x57I (or J) had been in use for some 10 years, so obviously sporting rifles had been made for that round. It seems likely that there would be some transition period after the military adopted the new bullet, with new rifles being chambered for the old round (as there was here in the .30-'03 - .30-'06 transition of the same time frame.)

Proof testing is done with whatever caliber the barrel/gun maker says his product is made for. The proof house will have loads for every standard cartridge, and will work up loads for non-standard calibers as necessary. Obviously, the purpose of proving is not to destroy guns; it is to fire the gun with an overcharge to detect defective barrels; only a bad barrel will fail to stand the overcharge (about 50% above the standard working pressure of the round).

Jim
 
Assuming that military rifles are considered "quality", that is certainly not true. When the Gewehr 98 was adopted in 1898, the "S" (.323") bullet did not exist and one of the advantages seen for retaining the 8mm was the vast quantity of ammunition available. So for the first, roughly, 5 years of Model 98 production, the barrels were made for the old cartridge.

Yes, you are correct, the S cartridge was adopted in 1905 and hundreds of thousands of M98's had to be converted to that cartridge. Unlike the M1888 conversion which Dr Storz has chapters on, the conversion of the M98 to the S cartridge is barely half a page. Apparently it went well, must not have had the barrel bursting problems of the M1888's. All Dr Storz says is that the M98 chambers were "ground", which I assume, we would say reamed. None of these reference books have an index, but a quick text scanning did not reveal anything about barrel replacement.

I do not recall seeing any early 98's with an "S" mark, but then rifles from those years are scarce.

Dr Storz shows a picture of one. A surviving example would be rare considering that these rifles should have been converted around 1905, then had to survive a nine years of peacetime use without rebarreling, then WW1. If they survived WW1 there were massive conversions and rebarreling that took place post WW1 and pre WW2.

Assuming that military rifles are considered "quality", that is certainly not true

I was thinking of quality civilian use rifles, such as a factory sporter. Obviously any 8mm civilian rifle built before 1905 would use the early cartridge, but after 1905, the market would quickly move towards the S cartridge dimensions. I am aware of some M1895 Winchesters that were in 30-03, (don't know the dates, but they would have been pre WW1) but can anyone remember any 1939 production rifles in 30-03? The OP has a 1939 rifle and I would be very surprised if it was 0.318", and if he slugs the barrel, we will find out.

Obviously, the purpose of proving is not to destroy guns; it is to fire the gun with an overcharge to detect defective barrels; only a bad barrel will fail to stand the overcharge (about 50% above the standard working pressure of the round).

The proof laws I read indicate European proof is 30% over standard. I do not know if there are any uniform standards for American proof, and if there were, they still don't have the force of law, so they would be simply for guidance to the manufacturer. It is very possible that a number of American manufacturer's simply function test their firearms and ship them out with a warranty card.

Virtually every time I mention my use of lubricated cartridges, or I recommend lubricating cartridges, I get a knee jerk "Oh my God!" :eek: reaction. Then I am constantly reminded that lubricated cartridges were used in the British proof test, with the assumption that lubricating cartridges has to be dangerous because the purpose of proof is to blow up the mechanism. The second part of the sentence is a fictional story that people create in their minds, and after, I believe, reading Hatcher's Notebook. Hatcher mentions that the early single heat treat 03's were blowing up in the field, so Springfield Armory increased the proof pressures, to blow up more 03's before they got out the door. Somehow people contort this section into a belief that the purpose of proof was to blow up rifles and that lubricating cartridges helps that process. Nothing is further from the truth. Unless the cartridge is lubricated the locking mechanism is not fully loaded, due to parasitic friction between the case body and the chamber. Therefore any proof tests with dry cartridges and dry chambers is technically unjustifiable as the locking mechanism is not as uniformly loaded as the chamber. This is recognized in NATO EPVAT testing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_EPVAT_testing NATO EPVAT testing specifically calls out the testing of firearms with an oiled proof load as the final test.

Something that people miss in Hatcher's whitewash of the Army's actions is that Springfield Armory did not attempt to figure out why their rifles were blowing up in the field, nor why these rifles were structurally deficient, which should have lead to eliminating the problem within the factory and not shipping defective rifles to the field. Instead of examining their processes and finding the root cause, the Army implemented the lazy man's approach: they raised proof pressures at the end of the production line and blew up more rifles. Implicit, but unstated in their actions, is that the Army accepted that they would continue to make defective rifles, a certain percentage of structurally defective rifles would pass a higher pressure proof, would be shipped to the troops, and would eventually fail in the field. And that is exactly what happened, structurally deficient rifles did pass the elevated proof test only to fail later in the hands of Troops, injuring many.
 
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I have a WW One era Turkish Mauser. I also have one of those Yugo M24s.

Practically, what does that mean for ammo selection? From this discussion, it seems that anything made WW Two era and beyond is O.K.?
 
I have a WW One era Turkish Mauser. I also have one of those Yugo M24s.

Practically, what does that mean for ammo selection? From this discussion, it seems that anything made WW Two era and beyond is O.K.?

I cannot offer any advice on a "WW1 era Turkish Mauser" as the Turks received a lot of obsolete rifles and who knows what exact model you have.

As for the Yugo, they were intended to use the same issue ammunition as German troops, who at the time would have been using the later S ammunition. In fact, I would have zero worries about Yugo's and undersized bores. I have one post WW2 Yugo rifle, built around a WW2 German K98. As with many Yugo's this one was refinished and rebarreled. The new barrel interior is 0.327" in diameter!
 
On the M1903 "blowups", I think it was not that the Army didn't care, or wanted to cover up the problem as much as they simply did not know what was going wrong. With no way to find the real problem, they took the reasonable approach of raising proof pressure; if defects could not be prevented, at least more could be screened out before the rifles were issued to the troops. Of course that thinking does not satisfy the conspiracy theorists, who would rather see a cabal of evil army officers plotting to cover up their crimes than decent people trying to solve a problem with too little understanding of what the problem was.

Jim
 
i picked up the rifle from my FFL today - it's a beasuty except for a non-matching bolt and modification to accommodate it - I'll open a separate thread to address that.

I'll see about slugging the bore in the next few days unless I decide to send it back.
 
The bore slugs at about .320" - I should probably call that a "J" bore. Would you consider it safe and not abusive to the gun to shoot lighter loads like the 170gr Remington Core-Lokt?

Since I want the gun to be shootable and huntable, I'm seriously considering sending it back - especially considering the bolt issue.
 
"Since I want the gun to be shootable and huntable, I'm seriously considering sending it back - especially considering the bolt issue."

I wouldn't be concerned about the "non-matching" bolt if the headspace is correct. I doubt that even 10-15% of the Mauser based rifles I shoot have "matching" bolt numbers.
If everything else is good, I doubt anything catastrophic would result from shooting the light loaded factory ammo. Don't construe this as a recommendation but merely an opinion.
 
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